Feedback from my first PH cycle

Thanks, David. Double thanks for your very informative articles. I really learned a lot and I always look forward to your posts as well!

Hi, jimlynch11: From what I've read any kind of anabolic/androgenic substance introduced exogenously (i.e., not manufactured by your own body) will cause some kind of shutdown. This should hold for 1-AD as well. Proper post-cycle therapy allows the body to restore natural testosterone production as quickly as possible, allowing us to keep a large proportion of the gains we achieved during the cycle. In this sense 6-OXO is still necessary after a 1-AD cycle. There's no good way of judging whether shutdown has occurred, unless bloodwork is done. So maybe I didn't need 6-OXO at all, especially after a short two-week cycle with a low dose of only 300mg ED of 1-AD, but I wasn't going to take a chance and not do PCT with 6-OXO if that means losing my gains!

With any PH/steroid, PCT is necessary. There is no such thing as one that does not cause shutdown.

I would suspect that 1-AD leads to relatively rapid shutdown, since M1T does.

Thanks very much for your kind words.

I lifted 3-4 days every week during the cycle, increasing my training volume only slightly (adding another set to each exercise). All my workouts were under an hour. I know it's been advised to increase training volume quite a bit (at least 7 hours a week or something like that) but over the years I've found that my body really responds best to lower volume workouts. Reps were between 6-10 reps depending on the bodypart being exercised, and I generally tried to add 5-10 pounds to each exercise for the following workout, form permitting.

Cardio remained the same before I started any of the cycles, 20 minutes 2-3 times a week on the elliptical machine. I wanted to make sure my gains were from the PH's -- and not because I cut back on other activities. Prior to beginning the cycles I had upped my calories 500+ or so above maintenance, and any gains I generated from just eating more leveled off before I started taking PH's.

On off days I dosed the same amounts.

So basically I tried to keep every variable in check to make sure that my gains were from the PH's I was taking, not because I modified something else.

Thanks for your comments. I read most threads in this website as well and I do agree that there's a lot of folks who could do a bit more research before using PH's and such.

I may ask for your advice and feedback when I begin my cutting cycle in June, seeing how in many of the threads you started/posted you have racked up a lot of experience in using Ab-Solved, etc. in your efforts to get ripped. Nice pics by the way, best wishes on your continued progress!

Thanks, Ronn. I appreciate your kind words and advice. You are right: 5 pounds a year of solid LBM is/was good progress for me before attempting any kind of PH/PS cycle, so I am very happy with the kind of gains I was able to generate in these two "underdosed" cycles.

I am about a week post-PCT and I am finding it a bit difficult to keep up my eating to maintain cals for my new bigger self. It was a cinch to have a massive appetite while on PHs, even during PCT, but I now find that I really have to force-feed myself sometimes to get as many protein/cals as I used to get while on PHs. But this is no biggie, of course. Oh wow, cry me a river, I have to force food down my throat.

I felt alright with my two PCT trials with 6OXO alone and with 6OXO and Nolva. There has been some discussion about combining SERMs (Nolva) and aromatase inhibitors (6OXO) for optimal results. I have not heard or read too many things about how 7OXO is helpful in PCT. Do you know how it works and why it might be helpful in relation to just taking 6OXO?

Thanks again for your advice and kind words.

R-i-g-h-t. Did you read this entire thread? For someone who just subscribed to this forum yesterday what right and privileged information do you have to think that the results I posted here is "full of sheet"?

I do not think this is a very helpful or informative post. I do welcome feedback and suggestions so please do articulate why you think I am "full of sheet."

I believe you are correct there. 1-Test is more androgenic and suppressive than M1T is I think. Generally, 17-alkylation reduces androgen character with few exceptions.

That's kind of uncalled for IMO. While Victory's results are certainly not ordinary, they are not impossible. I have gained as much as 10lbs in a single week before on previous cycles. I gained 18lbs in 3 weeks on my first one. If you have the right mix of diet, training, and genetics (and steroids or PH of course) it is definitely possible to gain 8 lbs a week for two weeks; I've seen it happen more than once.

Thanks, James. Note also that these 'unusual' gains came from my very first ever PH cycle. My 2nd PH cycle "only" put on 5.5 pounds in 2 weeks. I suppose that qualifies as being "less full of sheet" for joe29811 (whatever that means).

Definitely congrats on the results of your first 2 cycles and anyone that put you down is either jealous or doesn't know what they are really talking about. You have obvious done alot of reading and research and it has obvious paid off.

Thanks, Lawn30177. Best wishes on your development too!

Thanks Victory!

Have you thought of using Tribulus at all with 6OXO on your PCT?

Yes, actually. I don't think it did much for me, over and above what I already got from 6OXO. It might work for others, though. Some people suspect that tribulus might cause suppression as well -- however mild compared to PHs -- so be warned that this runs against what we are trying to do in PCT.

Thanks for your question, RevLloydCarroll. I am not quite sure how to address it properly because...

1. I can give you the details of my workout plan when I followed a 2on/2off cycle with 1AD/6OXO, but if you judge my workout to be "more efficient" than yours and you end up changing your stuff around as you add the 1AD/6OXO into the mix...

2. ... How will you know if the results you get, if any, are from the 1AD/6OXO cycle or from the change in workout?

That being said, if you allow a sufficient amount of time for your body to get somewhat used to one or two changes before you add on another component, then you should be fine. After 14 years of working out, I've found that the best "bulking" cycle for me would be:

a.) Weight training workouts 3 times a week, no more than 1 hour per workout, no more than 3 exercises per bodypart, no more than 6 sets total per bodypart, 4 sets for smaller muscles. I work each bodypart no more than two times a week. I need only work legs once a week (otherwise I go into overtraining).

b.) HIIT cardio, 10-15 minutes 2-3 times a week just to stave off fat accumulation.

This is basically the workout plan I followed to generate the kind of gains I got from my first two PH cycles as described in this thread. There will be some differing opinions about this, others advocating higher volumes of training while on PH's, but I also tried this and found that it limited my gains. I guess my body is built for shorter, more high intensity workouts (although I rarely carry more than one set to balls-to-the-wall failure per bodypart).

You've got to figure out what works for you both in terms of diet and training before you add on the PH's; once you get your diet and training down pat, the PH's can really help provide a kick in terms of progress and development. But if your diet and training isn't in order, the results you'll get from PH's will probably be mediocre at best.

It looks like you're on your way in terms of figuring out what works for you, given the smart questions you are asking. Good luck and I hope this helps!

Good luck with your efforts! You were certainly strong and probably still have a good base using which you can build a phenomenal physique. I think your gradual and patient approach to PH/PS's will yield much greater gains down the line as you acquire more knowledge about training and diet and how your body might respond to different compounds. Let us know how things go!

Thanks, bitmask. I took in between 3,800 to 4,000 calories per day while on cycle (the variance is due to different meals my wife would prepare).

Thanks for the kind words.

I took Twinlab's Blood Pressure Control (available on this site), recommended to me by Max32, and Coenzyme Q10. I did not succeed in getting my blood pressure down to what most consider ideal; during PH cycles my BP would hover at the high 130s/80s, sometimes going up to as high as 145/95, but I keep my cycles fairly short so once I stop my BP normalizes fairly quickly.

If you have access to scripts like captopril you may want to consider taking such, barring any contraindications.

Thanks, bmarks, for your kind words. My responses to your questions:

1. I used a combo of Nolva and MetaCort for PCT after my MD cutting cycle. I quite liked it, and given the price for which I got it ($19.99 per bottle special over here way back when for MetaCort) I would probably use this combo again. Oral 6OXO probably worked just as fine, though, although MetaCort has the advantage of having 7-OXO-DHEA thrown in for good measure. No real sides to speak of with both options, aside from a little acne which I am not sure I should attribute to these compounds (because the acne began during the androgen cycle and started tapering off afterwards).

2. I was pretty happy with MD as a cutting agent but as I noted above I used pretty high doses. Given the price for which it's available now it's OK, though. I plan to try M4OHN for my next cutting cycle, and I'll post my results after that's done. Given the impending ban, though, I've stocked up on enough MD and M4OHN for a couple of cycles.

Good luck!

Thanks, Rod42753, for your kind words. Here are my replies to your questions:

1. I was using creatine and whey protein as well during my first cycle, along with basic multivitamins, but note that I was taking these supplements before I started my cycle -- so that I could properly attribute any gains to the marginal PH intake.

2. I experienced some lethargy and some outbreak of acne during my cycle, but it was not too bad. I took in 5g of Vit B5 ED to counteract the acne, and for particularly big nasty ones I applied a dose of benzoyl peroxide (OTC, available in any pharmacy). Worked fine for me. Lethargy disappeared after my cycle and acne disappeared into my PCT.

I have not used 1AD in a cutting cycle but I expect it would help maintain muscle mass despite the caloric deficit. Just don't expect massive strength and size gains given that you're eating less. The only way you're going to drop seven percentage points in bodyfat over the next 3 months is for you to go on a fairly strict diet so any gains in muscle should be considered a plus. That said, given that this is your first PH cycle then you may indeed gain muscle and lose fat at the same time. But everyone responds differently so if after a week you aren't happy with your results I would change one variable (eat more? Up dosage of 1AD a bit?) at a time and see how that works. Change stuff around too much and it will be difficult to figure out what's really working and what ought to be fine-tuned.

Good luck!

Thanks, Kow. Your advice and counsel played a big part in whatever "success" I am supposed to have achieved from these past few cycles. I will continue to update this journal also as a reminder to myself to stick to my goals and keep on chugging -- and PH or no PH, the best development one can achieve is built over long periods of time measured in years, not weeks or months.

I am excited to begin my cycle this October 1, which will be a "lean bulk" cycle. So far I am at 193.5 pounds (as of today), still as big as I was at 205/206, but strength gains have slowed down a bit. My objective is to bring back some of the lean mass I lost since I began my cutting cycle last June 1, but not to the extent of upping my cals so much that I gain back inches on my waist.

This "lean bulk" cycle will last for two weeks, with two weeks of PCT, and I will try 5mg ED of M1T to see how it works for me and whether I should stock up on it before the ban or if the sides that a lot of people seem to be complaining about are simply intolerable. Note that I now have eight months of experience with PH's before I even decided to begin a cycle with something as harsh as M1T!

To prepare for the stress that M1T is supposed to cause I have begun taking 400mg of r-ALA and 2 caps of 1fast400 ProLiver five days ago, which means I will have built up 2 weeks of "liver strengthening time" before beginning my M1T cycle on October 1. I will up r-ALA to 600mg ED and ProLiver to 3 caps a day while on cycle. PCT will be MetaCort and Nolva, tapering down over 2 weeks.

Would appreciate any feedback or inputs! Thanks, and I'll keep you all posted!

Thanks, Kow. You're right about the 4AD, almost overlooked that. I have oral 4AD handy and will take it if the lethargy gets too hard to handle. Otherwise I like evaluating how I respond to substances stand-alone. Hard for me to tell whether the gains come from the M1T or the 4AD if I start out taking both at the same time.

Since I've taken 600mg of 4AD in the past, 600 to 900mg of oral 4AD should be perfect for this upcoming cycle.

Thanks again! Will keep you posted.

Hope all is well, bmarks.

I start out with a (fairly) high dose of Nolva (40mg ED) and MetaCort (5 sprays twice a day) and taper down from there. Usually my PCT is as long as my cycle, then I spend 1-2 times that off to determine how much of the gains I actually end up keeping. So for the 2 week 1-AD/4-AD cycles in the past my PCT has been anywhere from 10-14 days; for the 6 week MD cycle I did a 6 week PCT, tapering down from the initial dose at a uniform rate.

Hope this helps!

Because of a family history of male pattern baldness I already apply a mix of minoxidil and azelaic acid topically. Not sure if I noticed any shedding from 1-AD supplementation; if it's at all comparable I probably noticed more shedding when I used 4-AD stacked with 1-AD.

Thanks, OmarJackson. My initial receptiveness to PH's was most probably just a newbie response; subsequent cycles never packed on more than 5-8 pounds over my typical two-weekers. Then again, I never did quite do a heavy bulking cycle like I did for this very first try. All I did were "lean bulks," focusing on dry gains.

All in all, I think my results in this first cycle were very much driven by every component of my regimen coming together: My health and strength levels were good, I was training hard and heavy, and was gobbling down good food and maintaining positive caloric balance. The 1-AD definitely helped kick my gains into overdrive, but I doubt that I would have gained so much if these other components of my regimen were not in check.

Just in case you might find it helpful, I created another review thread where I posted my evaluation of M1T/4AD and M4OHN:

http://forums.bulknutrition.com/?showtopic=7322

Hope this helps!