how's this stack look?

1Fast400 Forums > Hormone/Prohormones

Posted by: cycledude Feb 9 2004, 12:18 PM

1-test
4AD (4diol)
1,4 andro

I'm looking more for strength gains and retention of strength, not size. I'm a bicyclist/ex. weight trainer so I do a lot of cardio but like my musculature. I'm working on strengthening a severe muscle imbalance from a past injury and it's resultant surgery.
Getting cut would be a welcome plus too! I'd like some recommendations about doseages. I figured to go on the low side with the 4AD and 1,4 and run this cycle for about a month.
I'll get some 6-OXO when it's available next week for PCT - think that's strong enough?

what do you think? Any advice is welcome.

oh by the way, the ph's I listed are all orals

thanks!
Tim

Posted by: prolangtum Feb 9 2004, 12:37 PM

I would grab some transdermal 4-ad, and 1,4. Keep it simple. Run the 1,4 600-1200mgs (depending on weight and androgen history), and probaly 400-600mgs of 4-ad trasndermally.

Posted by: prolangtum Feb 9 2004, 12:40 PM

I just caught the last part of your post. If you must go all oral, I would use ErgoPharm's Androdiol Select 300, and run 900-1200mgs per day.

Posted by: shpongled Feb 9 2004, 12:45 PM

I agree with pro's suggestions... generally speaking, stacking more than two PH's is redundant. If going with orals, 1,4 and 4-AD is probably the way to go.

As for 6-OXO, check out the methyl-1-test thread - there are differing opinions on this, but it is definitely better than nothing.

Posted by: Barrie How Feb 9 2004, 01:40 PM

Consider taking some Nolva pct just to be on the safe side .

Posted by: cycledude Feb 9 2004, 05:43 PM

Thanks for the feedback guys!

The reason I'm looking at the 1,4 and the 4AD is that it is mentioned as a combo with 1-test in the PH info thread. I get the impression that small dosages lessen the sides of the 1-test and inhance cutting while getting good strength.

I'm interested in keeping my dosages on the low side since this is my first time with PH's and don't know how my body will respond.

My doc gave me some testosterone gel I've been using for 2 weeks and have noticed some mild benefit - mostly in recovery time, but I need to step it up a notch.

I like the oral simply beacuse I'm really hairy and don't want to shave my back any more! I'm hoping that at relatively low dosages, my liver will stay happy

Are the bad sides like gyno related to how much PH you use? If I keep things modest am I less likely to get gyno?

Sorry I forgot to include my stats:
45 yrs. old,
got more hair on my body than my head - and I don't care!
been lifting for 12 years
never tried AS or PH's before
info about my knee and why I'm looking at PH's is here
http://www.superiormuscle.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=138680#post138680

Thanks again,
Tim

Posted by: cycledude Feb 9 2004, 11:06 PM

QUOTE (prolangtum @ Feb 9 2004, 12:37 PM)

I would grab some transdermal 4-ad, and 1,4. Keep it simple. Run the 1,4 600-1200mgs (depending on weight and androgen history), and probaly 400-600mgs of 4-ad trasndermally.

So Pro, you think I should skip on the 1-test? I figured it would be safer than the M1T. I was thinking it would be kind of the keystone to this package and the other 2 would help with the sides and the estrogen to test ratio. Think it's too much for my needs?

I don't have to go oral, but that's what I'd ordered already from 1fast400

My interest is primarily in helping the muscle growth on my atrophied leg. It has been responding slowly to the "Testim" gel, which gives me only about 5mg testosterone actually absorbed into my system over 24 hours.
I must admit however, I love weight training/bodybuilding and am looking forward to increased lean muscle mass!

thanks for helping out an obvious newby,
Tim

Posted by: shpongled Feb 10 2004, 12:37 AM

My suggestions...

First, I am not sure how much 1,4-andro will reduce the sides of 1-test. Maybe some, but not nearly as much as 4-AD to be sure. I would go with 1,4 and 4-AD for a "safe" stack and 1-test and 4-AD for a stronger stack with more side effects, and only do 1-test + 1,4-andro if you are really concerned about water retention/estrogenic sides. In my opinion, probably not something you need to be concerned with unless you have seen signs of gyno before. I don't think there is reason to stack all three together, and in that case, you are going to have less ideas which compounds you are deriving the benefit from for future reference.

After your cycle, you should discontinue all androgens, including the testosterone gel, and just take your PCT supplements.

Oral prohormones will be pretty easy on your liver, the real concern is 17aa steroids, although some ALA and other liver health supplements still couldn't hurt.

As far as gyno goes, as I said above, this is very unlikely to become an issue, especially with prohormones. All of the stacks mentioned are not very high risk either, although obviously the 1,4 and 1-test is lowest risk in this regard. You are correct, that keeping dosages modest will obviously lessen the risk. You will see signs of it well before it is permanent, and in that case you can just drop or lower the dosage of 4-AD and add in an anti-estrogen such as formestane.

Posted by: prolangtum Feb 10 2004, 12:40 AM

I think 1,4 and 4-ad is plenty for a first timer. With PH/PS or AAS I generally think it is best to use 1 compound, 2 at the max when starting out, so you can fnd out yourself what works and what doesnt work for you. Sytenhance may also be an option for rehabbing your atrophied leg, I used some 1-T sytenhance on my atrophied quad from a spider bite, and it helped signifigantly.

Posted by: cycledude Feb 10 2004, 10:35 AM

I've been researching, asking questions, and learning about hormone supplementation for months now and this forum is hands down the best! No attitudes and very helpful. I'm sure glad I found you guys!

That makes sense about using 3 and not knowing which one helped and which one didn't.

The 4AD and 1,4 andro stack sounds good to me. I want to creep up on this. Instead of using as much as I can to get as much as I can, I want to use as little as possible, yet get the gains I need.

The 4AD I ordered is a diol, which doesn't convert at all to estrogen. Should I use a dione instead? And what if I run it with 1-test down the road with another cycle?

Also, since I do a lot of cardio, like 4-5 times a week for 2-3 hours each time on my bike, any special concerns? I already drink lots of H20.

thanks again,
Tim

Posted by: shpongled Feb 10 2004, 10:46 AM

QUOTE (cycledude @ Feb 10 2004, 10:35 AM)

The 4AD I ordered is a diol, which doesn't convert at all to estrogen. Should I use a dione instead? And what if I run it with 1-test down the road with another cycle?

Also, since I do a lot of cardio, like 4-5 times a week for 2-3 hours each time on my bike, any special concerns? I already drink lots of H20.

thanks again,
Tim

Definitely go with the diol for 4-AD, no matter what you are stacking it with. With the 1,4 either the dione or the diol will work although the dione has a lot more positive feedback backing it up.

As far as concerns with cardio, none that I'm aware of (assuming that amount of cardio is in line with your goals). Make sure you are getting enough sodium during exercise of course.

Posted by: cycledude Feb 10 2004, 12:10 PM

I'm wondering if I could trouble you guys for some dosing recommendations for me with this stuff I already ordered.

1-T - http://www.1fast400.com/?products_id=202

4-AD - http://www.1fast400.com/?products_id=84

1,4 andro - http://www.1fast400.com/?products_id=638

Keep in mind I'm creeping up on this so I want to go low dose, yet get good strength gains.

I guess I'll hold off on the 1-test this cycle and just use the 4-AD and the 1,4 andro this time around.

I weigh 200#

Also how long do you think this first cycle should be, and for PCT using 6-OXO, what regimen would you suggest.

thanks so much,
Tim

Posted by: shpongled Feb 10 2004, 12:37 PM

Did you get one bottle of each? Assuming so, I would go with one of these -

3 weeks:
750 mg 4-AD
800 mg 1,4-andro
6-OXO-
1 week @ 600 mg
1 week @ 400 mg
1 week @ 200 mg

4 week cycle:
500 mg 4-AD
600 mg 1,4-andro
6-OXO (2 bottles) -
1 week @ 600 mg
1 week @ 400 mg
1 week @ 300 mg
1 week @ 200 mg

Someone more experienced with the substance might have a better idea for the 6-OXO regimen...

Posted by: prolangtum Feb 10 2004, 03:54 PM

I think that may be slight overkill on the 6-OXO.
I think
600mg week 1
300mg week 2
100mg week 3

Posted by: cycledude Feb 11 2004, 10:46 AM

Thanks for all the help guys!

Since 1,4-andro apparently takes 3 weeks to kick in, should I modify my regimen? Would I be better off on a longer cycle like 4-6 weeks - or more?

I just ordered 2 bottles of 6-OXO so I'm ready to go!

By the way, I've been using the "Testim" testosterone gel for 19 days and my little buddies have shrunk a wee bit. No other sides except for a little libido loss - much to my wifes dismay! When I get my ph's, should I just dive into my cycle, or should I go PCT for a few weeks and start fresh?

Thanks,
Tim

Posted by: shpongled Feb 11 2004, 03:19 PM

Actually, although it is reputed as such, 1,4-andro doesn't take 3 weeks to kick in - boldenone actually has a short have-life, but the commonly found form (EQ) does, which is the reason for the confusion. So I don't really see a reason to make the cycle longer.

As for the testim - I don't think it would hurt to start your cycle right away, and just spend longer on PCT. You could go either way.

Posted by: cycledude Feb 13 2004, 04:17 PM

Hey guys,

So I've been doing the low dose (4AD-500mg a day and 1,4-andro at 600 a day) now for a few days and it seems to be working fine. I've learned to be sure to take these with a big meal but I'm having no problems at all.
In fact I feel great! Definitely feel stronger in the gym and faster on my bike!

So my question is what can I expect if I up the doseage of these to say 4AD-750mg and the 1,4 to 800? Besides more growth, will the sides be a bit more likely or a lot more likely?

Also, what if I were instead to include some 1-Test too, like 100 mg in the AM and drop the testim gel? I know it'll make it harder for me to tell how my body is reacting by taking 3 PH's, but typically what normally happens? Even more strength? More cut? More/bad sides?

I can leave things as they are, but if I'm playing it too safe, I don't mind upping things.

thanks,
Tim

Posted by: shpongled Feb 14 2004, 06:09 AM

Well I would think that increasing dosage causes a linearly proportional increase in sides. So I don't think it will dramatically increase your risk of sides, no. There does come a point where the increased sides are no longer worth the gains but the dosages you list are still pretty moderate. I don't see a problem with making those additions, although I would still wait on the 1-test if it were me, even though you may garner some benefit from adding it in.

Posted by: cycledude Feb 14 2004, 11:50 AM

Thanks David,

I realize my questions have obvious answers but being a cautious newbie, I have to ask them. And I really appreciate your patient answers.

The only side I've noticed besides somewhat smaller testes, is I need to drink a lot more. Not only am I a lot thirstier, but if I don't, urinating burns a bit.

So I've got some SAN 1-test burning a hole in my britches (could be because I mistakenly bought 2 bottles of it!) and I keep thinking about including it to my cycle.

What could I expect by also taking 100mg of 1-test a day? What benefits could I expect? Would they be worth it or should I just cool my jets and save the 1-test for a future cycle? Would I notice the lethargy at that dose?

So my options are:
1) to stay where I am
2) up the 4AD and 1,4diol
3) include 1-test to current cycle - and if I did, when should I take it? At night to avoid lethargy?

thanks again,
Tim

Posted by: prolangtum Feb 14 2004, 12:13 PM

IF anything #2, Or you could just ride out current doses

Posted by: DAdams Feb 14 2004, 02:19 PM

Honestly cycledude, My opinion (Just my opinion), is to ride out this cycle with how you have it going. If your expieriencing gains, and feel okay about how the side effects are affecting you, there is no reason to increase, or throw another factor into the equasion. Being your first cycle... thats about the best route.

I know how you feel on wanting to add more... but don't let the Adonis Complex grab you. More isnt always better.

Posted by: rlh006 Feb 14 2004, 03:26 PM

i would take the
1test
4-ad
1,4ad

if oral take
100-300mg 1-test, best dry weight gain, decreasing appetite
250-600mg 4-ad, small water gains while combating 1-t/1,4 sides
100-300mg 1,4-ad, good dry gains and appetite stimulate

Posted by: cycledude Feb 14 2004, 07:29 PM

Great advice guys!

I'm really impressed with the difference it makes on my rides. Stronger on hills, no lactic acid, better wind - it's actually amazing how much faster I am. I'm definitely making strength gains but I was surprised the difference it made with my cardio - I feel like Lance Armstrong! The extra work on my bad leg is really paying off with the help of these PH's.

I noticed at the gym the other day however my pumps seemed almost painful and I felt weak. Could have been a fluke but have any of you ever felt that?

So, since what I have seems to work, I won't mess with it. If I feel gains tapering off, then I guess I'll up dosages, but not add the 1-T. I can save it for future cycles

I have 2 more weeks of Testim cream so when it runs out, I'll end everything and start my PCT. Since it turns out this will be a 3 week cycle, should I consider upping things and go with "Option 2"? Still no side effects and I feel great.

Thanks,
Tim

Posted by: shpongled Feb 15 2004, 07:11 AM

A painful pump is definitely a common effect. I don't think it would hurt to up your dosage some.

Posted by: LeanBean14 Aug 12 2004, 08:13 PM

Hello,

I have been trying to research a feasible prohormone stack for a while.
Originally I had ordered the Fizgen Cycle, but I cancelled the order as soon as I saw the advice on this site.
I have been looking into the dermabolics products...
How does this look:
1 Test 200 mg per day
4 AD 600-700 mg per day.
I was thinking about cycling three weeks on, three weeks off... using 6 OXO during the off, then another three on, three off.
Is there anything else I could add to this combo?
Should I take creatine/aminos while on this stack?
Will 6 OXO be a sufficient PCT supplement?
Im a little confused about the PCT process.
Thank you.

Posted by: cycledude Aug 13 2004, 12:52 AM

It's neat for me to see this thread reappear after so many months. I've done a few cycles now and have a pretty good idea how my body responds to PH's. I have to say the S1+ is great! I also liked the 4AD and 1,4andro too, but the S1+ sure made the biggest gains

I'd go for 4-5 weeks then do a full PCT with 6-OXO. I wouldn't break it up. Check out the articles at this site to learn more about PCT.

Tim

Posted by: LeanBean14 Aug 13 2004, 03:06 AM

Thanks for replying...
So you wouldn't go with 1-Test and 4-Ad separately? You'd go with just S1+ alone.
The dosing looks harder to control since you need more of the 4AD than 1Test.
How did you work this out?

Posted by: cycledude Aug 13 2004, 09:14 AM

Yeah, I'd go with the S1+ alone. It has a good balance of 1-test and 4AD already. No messing around - just use as the bottle says. You don't need that much 4AD. 1-test as a stand alone worked well for me but the 4AD helped me get more gains I feel.

Tim