M1T

If you take underground labs m1t, should you take 6 oxo after you cycle it? Or is it fine just to use ala and milk thistle. Just wondering thanx...

I would definitely recommend full PCT after a 17aa-1-Test cycle, based on the extent of your cycle. 17aa-1-Testosterone is a very potent androgen, and LH & FSH suppression are quite probable with use. Some running very short cycles might be able to get away without running PCT, but I feel this is an unnecessary risk that could seriously handicap your 'full' gains off said cycle.

For a two week cycle, I would follow it with 2 tapered weeks of 6-OXO or Novladex(/Clomid) if you prefer the pharmaceutical PCT route.

Likewise, 4-8 weeks of 17aa-1-Test should be followed by a similar routine lasting @ least 4 weeks.

A good addendum to PCT in this regard is to also employ either a topical (or oral if you must) source of 7-OXO-DHEA (also known as 7-Keto-DHEA), which will help optimize thyroid function and suppress cortisol production while your body is trying to recover its hormonal homeostasis...

You need to be taking Nolva after a cycle with M1T.
M1T is pretty suppressive to your natural test so you need something stronger than 6-OXO.

I used 6-OXO in FL7 as my PCT for a low-dose test cycle (500mg/week) and it worked wonderfully. I can understand skepticism of 6-OXO's efficacy because it has less feedback than clomid and nolva, but don't automatically assume that it's weaker. It's a very potent little compound that I hope gets a lot more attention in the future.

Also, Jay, by your post it seemed like you have taken Milk Thistle's and ALA's usage with M1T to mean that they are for post-cycle therapy or otherwise to help with natural test levels.

Milk thistle is used for liver protection while using methylated androgens as the process of breaking them down can be hard on the liver ("liver toxicity"). ALA is used for its antioxidant properties (among other things).

I don't want to talk down to you, so I apologize if I took your post the wrong way. I'm just looking out for you so you'll know what you're looking for and won't get confused...better safe than sorry, right?

I am inclined to think that clomid/nolva would be a much better choice for PCT with methyl-1-test. I am still not convinced that an aromatase inhibitor alone is going to make as big of a difference after use of a compound that does not aromatise - hence estrogen levels are going to be low post-cycle, to begin with. However, SERMs may directly stimulate the HPTA.

Additionally, I think some form of PCT won't hurt even after a 1-week cycle. It seems M1T is heavily suppressive. I definitely wouldn't go more than 1-week if you aren't planning on using PCT.

I also think 6-OXO would be my third choice against nolvadex or clomid PC. The whole premise of using an aromatose inhibitor PC is faulty to me. Bobo was compiled a few various posts by Nandi on this exact subject.

Nandi:
"I would not use 6-oxo or any aromatase inhibitor post cycle. I have a theory based on numerous post cycle bloodwork data that people have sent me to comment on. Complete recovery of the HPA means both free and total test return to the normal range. Androgens dramatically lower SHBG. In fact, it can stay lowered for months after a cycle. As long as SHBG stays low, total test will be low, even if free test is normal. I have seen this phenomenon in quite a few bloodwork printouts. Aromatase inhibitors typically lower SHBG by blocking estrogen production. (Estrogen elevates SHBG). So taking an aromatase inhibitor post cycle just prolongs recovery.

The traditional post cycle ancillaries, clomid and nolvadex, raise SHBG, but block the suppressive effects of estrogen on the HPA at the hypothalamic/pituitary level. They allow total test to return to normal more quickly.

I have often heard the response "Well as long as free test is normal, what does it matter whether total test is low?" Test circulates in three fractions, free, SHBG bound, and "weakly bound" or albumin bound. The free+albumin bound is considered the bioavailable fraction. So you can have free test that is normal, but if total test is low, albumin bound test will be low as well, leading to low bioavailable test. This is why guys complain about low libido post cycle even if free test is normal. And the cases I have seen where this happens most often are those where guys have used an aromatase inhibitor post cycle.


One has to differentiate between aromatase inhibitors and SERMS like nolva and clomid. All are generally lumped together as antiandrogens. Only the aromatase inhibitors lower SHBG. The other two, being SERMs are estrogenic in this regard and raise SHBG. The more efficient the aromatase inhibitor is at blocking E2 production, the more impact it will have on SHBG. Exemestane, the most efficient aromatase inhibitor (a so called "suicide inhibitor since it permanently deactivates the enzyme) lowers SHBG the most.

As to how they lower total test, if test starts to increase during HPA recovery, and SHBG is low, the free fractions will increase disproportionally to total test, and then start to act directly on the hypothalamic GnRH pulse generator to dampen GnRH output, which inturn blunts LH secretion. So yes the free fractions are responsible for feedback inhibition

Bear in mind that there are elements of fact and elements of hypothesis in my comments. I'm hypothesizing that using post cycle aroamtase inhibitors impairs recovery by invoking the factual observations that amomatase inhibitors lower SHBG (fact), which increases the free test fraction (fact), which will then blunt GnRH release (fact). Unfortunately there are no studies of which I am aware where aromatase inhibitors were ever used to treat post cycle HPA suppression. I find it remarkable that in all the medical literature there are 2 studies where clomid was used for this, and 1 study where HCG was used.

There is another reason I would not use aromatase inhibitors post cycle. Animal studies have shown that blocking the conversion of test to estradiol locally, within the vascular endothelium, greatly accelerates the development of atherosclerotic plaques. During a cycle this is probably not going to be a problem, because there will still be plenty of aromatization going on (anastrazole and letrozole only block aroud 50% to 60% of aromatization). But post cycle, when test and estrogen are very low, blocking aromatization could, if it is valid to extrapolate the animal studies to people, accelerate atherosclerosis."

Here are links to a few of the animal studies:

http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/98/6/3589

http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/99/6/4055

http://circres.ahajournals.org/cgi/...y=BqyNB.4rGiPYQ

The above do I not entirely agree to (wow, I think I just 'channeled Dante' on that last sentence...), however, I do not really care to break this out into a massive argument on PCT protocol, so I'll respond if I have an excessive amount of free time (I don't), or I may just chime in a few things on this regard.

In any event, run PCT post-17aa-1-Test. Thank you.

Definitely an interesting post...

Do you know if PA has commented on any of this?

Well, for me, while I respect Nandi a great deal, his whole 'dismissal' of 6-OXO completely misses the point. The single, most important focus in PCT is (or at least should be on) the level of biologically active testosterone (free and weakly bound) in circulation. Since 4-androstene-3,6,17-trione (6-OXO) has been proven to achieve this in numerous different studies & trials, and does so wthout affecting SHBG levels to any significant degree, I think Nandi's critique is overlooking the central fact in the argument, namely, that 6-OXO functions far differently than 'conventional' A.I.s like Vitex, and there is quite a bit of literature out there that supports these contentions:


Numazawa M, Tsuji M, Mutsumi A, “Studies on aromatase inhibition with 4-androstene-3,6,17-trione: its 3 beta-reduction and time-dependent irreversible binding to aromatase with human placental microsomes”.J Steroid Biochem. 1987 Sep;28(3):337-44.

Booth JE “Effects of the aromatization inhibitor androst-4-ene-3,6,17-trione on sexual differentiation induced by testosterone in the neonatally castrated rat” J Endocrinol. 1978 Oct;79(1):69-76.

Marsh DA, Brodie HJ, Garrett W, Tsai-Morris CH, Brodie AM, “Aromatase inhibitors. Synthesis and biological activity of androstenedione derivatives” J Med Chem. 1985 Jun;28(6):788-95.


This is Patrick Arnold (Chemical PA)'s response:

Well, I would probably go with what PA says, although I am not sure, since both are knowledgable. But either way, this doesn't address my other concern: Namely, that estrogen will be supressed to begin with after a cycle of M1T, so how is inhibiting aromatase going to have any effect? Will a low level of aromatase signal test production in and of itself? This is a question I have asked previously, and while I am convinced that SERMs will have a benefit here, I am not so sure about aromatase inhibitors - it would seem that you would need estrogen to be high enough for them to make a difference, at least from my understanding of how they work.

Again, as Loki stated make sure you run some sort of PCT. You can differ on opinion what you believe is optimal, just do something. PA also stated in that thread that this issue probaly will never be fully resolved.

Because of the recent fall out of (liqui rese) and just to play it safe I have made a purchase for 1 bottle of PaCT from bsl. I will also run formestane in a bottle of absolve during the cycle. 4g of formastane will make their way into the bottle.

Id also like to add a few thoughts to 6-OXO PC. What do you think PA is going to recomend? Surely not a product he makes money off of right? Also, If estrogen is low PC, lowering it even further is not good for your chloresterol. Estrogen is not always bad as some may think.

So even ill go for a two week cycle of M1T/4AD i should be fine with just 6-OXO and milk thistle fro my PCT? or should i really consider taking Nolva/Clomid? Because every whre i go i get a different answer some say you must take nolva some say its fine just to OXO so can someone just clear this up please?

So what do you guys think about running Red Kat post cycle. From what I understood from your posts, and what I read about Red Kat, it is suppose to free bound test...I mean besides trying to get something illegal, all that I have seen marketed to take post cycle were anti-estrogens...I just tryed using aromadex, it was the first time I used pct. I have only done 3 cycles and when I did the other 2 there was no post cycle stuff advetised. Aromadex didn't do anything for me at all. I have also looked over the Pact from bsl. Isn't that an adrogen though? Won't it just further suppress test levels, when you come off?. So what is something I can use post cycle that I can get legally?...