Best supp no pct

Thanks bro

pretty good list

icariin - pretty good for its osteogenic and NO properties, but with horribly estrogenic metabolites, i'd stay far far away

androstenetrione - a decent AI stacked with an androgen, but alone, its too anti-androgenic, and it barely dampens estrogen production. i would only use during a non-aromatizing steroid cycle, only as a means to elevate sex drive

formestane - completely badass prohormone. nuff said

Thanks for the help bros ive narrowed it down lol.......

Powerfull
xfactor
mass fx
hyperdrol

Also ive been reading a lot about these two supps soon to be out

max-out

and prime

Icariin has a metabolite that is 94% as strong as estradiol.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16323292?ordinalpos=5&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

As discussed on the thread, the amount of metabolite produced will be dependent on the individual:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=85578543&postcount=8

So the higher percent icariin extract, the more likely the estrogenic metabolites will be produced.

Formestane (4OHA) is the prohormone to 4-hydroxytestosterone (4OHT).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1284430...Pubmed_RVDocSum

tribulus really doesn't have much effect on testosterone levels

The latest research has demonstrated tribulus's capacity to stimulate DHEA.

As you know, DHEA and its metabolite (5A) can directly stimulate estrogen receptors.

For me, tribulus elicits no estrogenic sides, possibily because it has more of an antagonistic nature towards progestrogenic receptors. It also attaches weakly to SHBG, freeing testosterone - as do a lot of phytohormones.

He said the metabolites produced are individually based

Exactly.

Icariin is metabolized in the gut by natural bacterial flora.

People have different flora depending on many different factors (ethnicity, food choice, exc).

For example, if you take an oral antibiotic, the natural flora will be disrupted and can be replaced by a different bacterial population (or %).

Some people can digest particular foods better than others, which would influence the amount of metabolites produced (gastrointestinal pharmacokinetics).

The study which determined icariin to be a 'testosterone mimetic' was performed on hypogonadal mice and is not relevent to normal humans. In order to make the mice hypogondal, they actually injected a toxin (cyclophosphamide i.p.) in order to damage their reproductive system.

As I said earlier, icariin's nitric oxide and osteogenic capability is well documented, but its estrogenic potential is a little worrying.

And if you are not experiencing negative estrogenic sides from supplementing with icariin, its definitely possible that you do not contain the necessary bacteria in order to metabolize it.

Keep in mind that unmetabolized icariin has zero estrogenic potential.

Thanks for all the good infro fellas...I am not very prone to gyno so i dont thin adding in the icariin would worry me to much..

Anyone have any advice on what I should stack i was thinkin this...

Powerfull
icariin
Blue gene

Not sure thought all suggestions are welcome

I'd go with powerfull, icariin, and activate instead of the blue up. I'm pretty sure its just trib and longjack and divanil is better at freeing up shbg than both of those. That's only if you like those.

If i was you, I'd stack Powerfull with anabolic pump, as PF will raise test/gh sufficiently enough, the other will probably be over kill. Throw in some creatine as well. Cheap monohydrate.

You're taking that the wrong way, anything that disrupts your natural levels could potentially cause gyno, some are more likely because of the estrogenic metabolites like diesel explained. But anything that affects your levels could essentially cause gyno, depends on your body.

The vast majority of research, studies, and feedback say the complete opposite.

No study has ever said icariin's metabolites are anti-estrogenic (that would be the complete opposite, no?).

Icariin's metabolites (2 of them, actually) are definitely estrogenic. The only point of conjecture is of the quantity metabolized upon ingestion. If it's a low amount, then it doesn't matter. The inverse is also true.

but didn't it mention the plant species cultivated plays a role as well?

The studies cited used a 97% extract. The source become irrelevent at this percentage as it is considered pure.

Vitruvian,

I've already discussed what you posted. The metabolites talked about in that study were shown to be derived from gut bacteria in the normal flora.

i.e. When the molecule icariin is ingested, it TURNS IN TO the icariin metabolites cited above.

There is no "unnatural enzymatic" reaction taken place. Nice try though!

This is not a situation of miscommunication.

I have the full-text which explains how the metabolites are relevant to the discussion.

This thread may explain some of the misunderstandings:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=85334223&postcount=1

The thread I mentioned used 4 or 5 different studies to prove my point.

So, it's not like I'm just randomly pulling this outa my ass.

BTW, Naringin is also estrogenic...

Nevertheless, NeoVar looks pretty good and Osteo-Sport appears pretty innovative, so good luck with that.

Also if I were you, I would have left out the "CGC2 Joint Regeneration Matrix," since it is absurdedly underdosed, and you already have a cissus product. The "Joint-Glide Mobility Complex" is interesting enough on its own to sell product (especially with the curcumin + piperine combo). If I was rich I'd pick up a bottle today.

haha true story.

Correct, you're not pulling it out of your ass.

You've PROVEN that Icariin METABOLITES have the POTENTIAL to be estrogenic, when converted by an ENZYME THAT THE HUMAN BODY DOES NOT HAVE. You have supported this with discussion by some VERY brilliant minds, your own included, who have HYPOTHESIZED that the bacteria in the human gut can THEORETICALLY produce enough of this enzyme to make a difference.

In the mean time, the extremely large elephant in the room shows that all this theory is not panning out..... because there are very few if any issues popping up with estrogenic effects resulting from Icariin. Not just with AN's products, but with any of the other icariin products that popped into the market shortly thereafter. You've held tight to icariin being estrogenic, but haven't address it's competition for estrogen receptor's coupled with icariin NOT being estrogenic. The additional drop in cortisol leads to a very positive skew of the T:C ratio.


As for Osteo-Sport.... it's a very good product, thanks. Nothing there is underdosed in use, and yes, we do have another cissus product. Multiple cissus products fro multiple markets and consumers.

Im not very thin at all actually..

i mean 5'10 - 196-200lbs @ 12%bf is pretty stout.

I just roller coaster when gaining and losing weight. Diet's always consistent. training is consistent. Idk what the deal is with my body.

hahaha... you're tellin me man!

As for weight loss.... is most of it fat loss, water, lean mass?
And nope... not gonna mention a skin split. If I have mentioned that, I apologize. And you continue to act as if "they" tell me what to do. No one is directing my actions in the slightest, friend.

I am kinda hoping to see the full text of this study posted so I can see what Diesel is really basing his opinions on. I mean... let's think of this.... if bacteria in the gut can produce a lot of cellulase, then in theory shouldn't we be able to digest cellulose? I am curious as to whether cellulase levels used to convert the icariin are mentioned in the study, and then if it is known how much bacteria can produce in the human body.

As for naringin.... i'll post more later

You've PROVEN that Icariin METABOLITES have the POTENTIAL to be estrogenic, when converted by an ENZYME THAT THE HUMAN BODY DOES NOT HAVE.

http://www.chinaphar.com/1671-4083/26/477.htm


Your entire argument was based on that, and since it is wrong, what else do you have?

Really?


CGC2 Joint Regeneration Matrix: 115mg

Cissus Quadrangularis (40% Phytosterols), Ascorbic Acid (vitamin C), Glucosamine Sulfate, Chondrotin Sulfate 90% (Chinese Bovine), MSM (Methylsulfonylmethane)

Well, I am not sure what you in particular could expect. If you're like most people, you'd find lean mass gains with simultaneous drops in body fat, increased energy and libido, and increased aggression and focus.

If you're like a lot of users, you'd even notice an anti-estrogen effect.

Naringin is "anti" estrogenic in only the CYP metabolic system - in that it inhibits an enzyme which sometimes activates estradiol.

Nevertheless, biologically, this makes VERY little difference.

The molecule itself has demonstrated an agonist effect towards the MCF-7 cell line. This means that it has a pro-estrogenic effect towards estrogen sensative cells. [1]

Secondly, naringin itself has only shown marginal binding affinity towards estrogen receptors, however its metabolic cousin - naringenin - is highly estrogenic! [2, 3]

And I don't know who taught you SAR, but you might need a little refresher course. [4]



References:
[1] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12967197?ordinalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

[2] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10406482?ordinalpos=6&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naringin

[4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structure-activity_relationship

true that, ill pm u my new stack