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 | QUOTE (Vitruvian @ Aug 22 2008, 06:32 AM) | | QUOTE (TheDiesel @ Aug 21 2008, 11:39 PM) | | QUOTE (Vitruvian @ Aug 21 2008, 08:31 PM) | ^ If I didn't know any better, I'd think someone is taking this quite personally! Never had your opinion questioned before? I am not trying to discredit you or argue man. Just stating a disagreement.
Example: So if I can post one study saying creatine has potential for a unwanted side effects, you gonna tell people not to use it, even though every other sign points to it being a go? No need to answer.... a back and forth will be pointless.
Regards. |
The thread I mentioned used 4 or 5 different studies to prove my point. So, it's not like I'm just randomly pulling this outa my ass. BTW, Naringin is also estrogenic... Nevertheless, NeoVar looks pretty good and Osteo-Sport appears pretty innovative, so good luck with that. Also if I were you, I would have left out the "CGC2 Joint Regeneration Matrix," since it is absurdedly underdosed, and you already have a cissus product. The "Joint-Glide Mobility Complex" is interesting enough on its own to sell product (especially with the curcumin + piperine combo). If I was rich I'd pick up a bottle today.  |
Correct, you're not pulling it out of your ass. You've PROVEN that Icariin METABOLITES have the POTENTIAL to be estrogenic, when converted by an ENZYME THAT THE HUMAN BODY DOES NOT HAVE. You have supported this with discussion by some VERY brilliant minds, your own included, who have HYPOTHESIZED that the bacteria in the human gut can THEORETICALLY produce enough of this enzyme to make a difference. In the mean time, the extremely large elephant in the room shows that all this theory is not panning out..... because there are very few if any issues popping up with estrogenic effects resulting from Icariin. Not just with AN's products, but with any of the other icariin products that popped into the market shortly thereafter. You've held tight to icariin being estrogenic, but haven't address it's competition for estrogen receptor's coupled with icariin NOT being estrogenic. The additional drop in cortisol leads to a very positive skew of the T:C ratio. As for Osteo-Sport.... it's a very good product, thanks. Nothing there is underdosed in use, and yes, we do have another cissus product. Multiple cissus products fro multiple markets and consumers. |
You've PROVEN that Icariin METABOLITES have the POTENTIAL to be estrogenic, when converted by an ENZYME THAT THE HUMAN BODY DOES NOT HAVE. | QUOTE | | Up to now, the interfering effects of the traditional chinese medicine on ES cells and their directional differentiation in vitro have not been investigated. Icariin (ICA), icaritin (ICT), and desmethylicaritin (DICT) (Figure 1) are constituents of Epimedium, a traditional Chinese herbal medicine that has many biological functions, particularly in cardiovascular function improvement, hormone regulation, immunological function modulation, and antitumor activity[9]. Our former work has shown that icariin can be metabolized to icartin and demethylicartin by human intestinal bacteria in vitro[10] |
http://www.chinaphar.com/1671-4083/26/477.htmYour entire argument was based on that, and since it is wrong, what else do you have?
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| QUOTE (OmniRed @ Aug 22 2008, 12:47 PM) | I'd assume it's a combination of the 3 Vit. Water, mass and fat.
So, what can i expect from the drive/rpm stack? |
Well, I am not sure what you in particular could expect. If you're like most people, you'd find lean mass gains with simultaneous drops in body fat, increased energy and libido, and increased aggression and focus. If you're like a lot of users, you'd even notice an anti-estrogen effect.
Applied Nutriceuticals Representative
www.appliednutriceuticals.com
Better Results Through Science
Drive+RPM: It doesn't get any better
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Diesel, Thanks. I assume that link is for the full study. I'll have a look later today or this weekend if I get a free moment. As for Osteo-Sport.... I think you're looking at it as if it is a Cissus based product. it's not. It's a joint support formula. Yes, if that was the total package, i fully agree we'd have a problem... but it's multiple cap dosing, and the rest of the product is what truly makes it. Applied Nutriceuticals Representative
www.appliednutriceuticals.com
Better Results Through Science
Drive+RPM: It doesn't get any better
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| QUOTE (Vitruvian @ Aug 23 2008, 07:17 AM) | Naringin is an estrogen antagonist- it inhibits the action and biosynthesis of estrogenic compounds.....just by its chemical structure it can antagonize estrogen and have some effects on aromatization, but not convert directly to it....
It has a reduced 2(3) C=C bond w/ an aromatic hetercyclic skeleton of flavan (2-phenylbenzopyran)- good for estrogen-antagonistic properties, but not great for conversion......other compounds in this family are hesperidin and hesperitin (found in several studies to be anti-aromatases) |
Naringin is "anti" estrogenic in only the CYP metabolic system - in that it inhibits an enzyme which sometimes activates estradiol. Nevertheless, biologically, this makes VERY little difference. The molecule itself has demonstrated an agonist effect towards the MCF-7 cell line. This means that it has a pro-estrogenic effect towards estrogen sensative cells. [1] Secondly, naringin itself has only shown marginal binding affinity towards estrogen receptors, however its metabolic cousin - naringenin - is highly estrogenic! [2, 3] And I don't know who taught you SAR, but you might need a little refresher course. [4] References: [1] Proliferative effects of flavones on the MCF-7 cell line[2] Xenoestrogens | QUOTE | | the flavonoid phytoestrogens genistein and naringenin were also identified as hSHBG ligands |
| QUOTE | | It is metabolized to the flavanone naringenin in humans. |
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That is a very interesting read to say the least. I won't lie and pretend to have breezed through it...... that took a long ass time. lol You've provided a lot of valid points, and to be honest... I forfeit. I don't have the time or energy to continue, and you have made some points that I am not at a knowledge level to argue. I will say that nothing has swayed my opinion though. I tried to do some searching thinking I had read 1 estrogen-like side effect report on one forum or another in regards to the Drive/ RPM stack. I couldn't find it. I checked with a couple others who have not seen even a single one. I am of the opinion that the data, with the exceptions you noted, all points to the fact that the compound does not, in the vast majority of cases, have ANY estrogen related effects. Your research would support the potential for some, but it just does not appear to be occurring. I am still waiting to find the person who has enough of these cellulase producing bacteria that do not exist in sufficient quantities in the human body. I would think this person would have the ability to digest cellulose that none of the rest of us can. I haven't even had the chance to look through your last post to review the links, but will do so in the coming days when I get a chance. Applied Nutriceuticals Representative
www.appliednutriceuticals.com
Better Results Through Science
Drive+RPM: It doesn't get any better
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Accent115 is the only one with some sense around here. j/k, you're cool too Joe.
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Best supp no pct
