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 | QUOTE (Vitruvian @ Aug 20 2008, 06:10 PM) | There's quite a few factors that come into play on that Icariin being estrogenic topic.... and only 1 remotely worthwhile study saying so. The vast majority of research, studies, and feedback say the complete opposite. I only glanced at the study.... but didn't it mention the plant species cultivated plays a role as well?
As for Formestane, I have heard some good things on that. Does anyone know....Is it legal in natural organizations? |
Thanks for all the good infro fellas...I am not very prone to gyno so i dont thin adding in the icariin would worry me to much.. Anyone have any advice on what I should stack i was thinkin this... PowerfullicariinBlue gene Not sure thought all suggestions are welcome
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| QUOTE (flex13 @ Aug 20 2008, 06:50 PM) | | QUOTE (Vitruvian @ Aug 20 2008, 06:10 PM) | There's quite a few factors that come into play on that Icariin being estrogenic topic.... and only 1 remotely worthwhile study saying so. The vast majority of research, studies, and feedback say the complete opposite. I only glanced at the study.... but didn't it mention the plant species cultivated plays a role as well?
As for Formestane, I have heard some good things on that. Does anyone know....Is it legal in natural organizations? |
Thanks for all the good infro fellas...I am not very prone to gyno so i dont thin adding in the icariin would worry me to much.. Anyone have any advice on what I should stack i was thinkin this... PowerfullicariinBlue gene Not sure thought all suggestions are welcome |
I'd go with powerfull, icariin, and activate instead of the blue up. I'm pretty sure its just trib and longjack and divanil is better at freeing up shbg than both of those. That's only if you like those. If i was you, I'd stack Powerfull with anabolic pump, as PF will raise test/ gh sufficiently enough, the other will probably be over kill. Throw in some creatine as well. Cheap monohydrate.
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| QUOTE (Vitruvian @ Aug 20 2008, 06:10 PM) | There's quite a few factors that come into play on that Icariin being estrogenic topic.... and only 1 remotely worthwhile study saying so. The vast majority of research, studies, and feedback say the complete opposite. I only glanced at the study.... but didn't it mention the plant species cultivated plays a role as well?
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The vast majority of research, studies, and feedback say the complete opposite.No study has ever said icariin's metabolites are anti-estrogenic (that would be the complete opposite, no?). Icariin's metabolites (2 of them, actually) are definitely estrogenic. The only point of conjecture is of the quantity metabolized upon ingestion. If it's a low amount, then it doesn't matter. The inverse is also true. but didn't it mention the plant species cultivated plays a role as well? The studies cited used a 97% extract. The source become irrelevent at this percentage as it is considered pure.
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I had a discussion with one of our owners- Dirk Tanis.....who is in charge of all formulation. Here's what I got back as a summary of all he explained to me. To think ANY human has this info stored to memory is amazing to me.... I just listened, took notes, and got busy researching. Right on the money. The aims of the present study were to determine the estrogenic activities of icariin (ICA) and its derivatives and their structure-estrogenic activity relationship. Therefore, icaritin (ICT) and desmethylicaritin (DICT) were derived from ICA. This means that some sort of chemical process occurred to get ICT and DICT from icariin- this is not listed in the abstract, nor are the enzymatic reactions to convert ICA to ICT and DICT listed. Case in point, testosterone is derived from sissal waste product, and other organic substances. Can you up your testosterone by eating a bunch of sissal? Not very likely- but if you chemically derive testosterone from sissal through enzymatic reactions (which the human body cannot perform on its own), you can come up with an end product of testosterone. The fact that these two substances had to be derived from icariin alone disqualifies his reasoning. If the two substances were icariin metabolites and the clear enzymatic process was listed, that would be a different story.
As a flavone, Icariin is an estrogen antagonist by nature, meaning that it can mitigate estrogenic effects by competing with estrogen for receptor sites, but does not mimic the action of estrogen. Estrogen antagonists, SERMs, and SARMs can also increase bone mass, elevate mood, and positively alter the T:E reatio. There is also evidence (and this is true among many estrogen antagonists, SERMs, and SARMs) that by mediating estrogenic effects through antagonistic actions, there can be cross-talk with the androgen receptor, and icariin also has some effects as a glucocorticoid antagonist as well- meaning that it can lower cortisol levels. The estrogenic activities of ICA, ICT and DICT were examined by cell proliferation and progestogen receptor mRNA expression of estrogen-receptor-positive MCF-7 cells.Current studies exhibited that ICT and DICT both markedly enhanced the proliferation of MCF-7 cells; as compared to estradiol (100%), their relative proliferative effects (RPE) were 90% and 94%, respectively. Cell proliferation induced by ICT and DICT was completely antagonized by ICI182,780. ICT and DICT increased progestogen receptor (PR) at mRNA levels at 48 h after treatment, although the effects were not as prominent as 17beta-estradiol (E2). Those phenomena were not observed with ICA. Results demonstrate that ICT and DICT (nonconjugated forms) possess estrogen-like activity; however, ICA appears to have no estrogenicity in the MCF-7 cell lin e model in vitro. The study clearly states that ICA has no effect on estradiol, and has no estrogenicity itself. And we use ICARIIN, not ICARIINS- this is why  Icariins can contain all of these other estrogenic substances and microfractions- icariin clearly does not. Applied Nutriceuticals Representative
www.appliednutriceuticals.com
Better Results Through Science
Drive+RPM: It doesn't get any better
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| QUOTE (Vitruvian @ Aug 21 2008, 11:35 AM) | I had a discussion with one of our owners- Dirk Tanis.....who is in charge of all formulation. Here's what I got back as a summary of all he explained to me. To think ANY human has this info stored to memory is amazing to me.... I just listened, took notes, and got busy researching. Right on the money.
The aims of the present study were to determine the estrogenic activities of icariin (ICA) and its derivatives and their structure-estrogenic activity relationship. Therefore, icaritin (ICT) and desmethylicaritin (DICT) were derived from ICA.
This means that some sort of chemical process occurred to get ICT and DICT from icariin- this is not listed in the abstract, nor are the enzymatic reactions to convert ICA to ICT and DICT listed. Case in point, testosterone is derived from sissal waste product, and other organic substances. Can you up your testosterone by eating a bunch of sissal? Not very likely- but if you chemically derive testosterone from sissal through enzymatic reactions (which the human body cannot perform on its own), you can come up with an end product of testosterone. The fact that these two substances had to be derived from icariin alone disqualifies his reasoning. If the two substances were icariin metabolites and the clear enzymatic process was listed, that would be a different story.
As a flavone, Icariin is an estrogen antagonist by nature, meaning that it can mitigate estrogenic effects by competing with estrogen for receptor sites, but does not mimic the action of estrogen. Estrogen antagonists, SERMs, and SARMs can also increase bone mass, elevate mood, and positively alter the T:E reatio. There is also evidence (and this is true among many estrogen antagonists, SERMs, and SARMs) that by mediating estrogenic effects through antagonistic actions, there can be cross-talk with the androgen receptor, and icariin also has some effects as a glucocorticoid antagonist as well- meaning that it can lower cortisol levels.
The estrogenic activities of ICA, ICT and DICT were examined by cell proliferation and progestogen receptor mRNA expression of estrogen-receptor-positive MCF-7 cells.Current studies exhibited that ICT and DICT both markedly enhanced the proliferation of MCF-7 cells; as compared to estradiol (100%), their relative proliferative effects (RPE) were 90% and 94%, respectively. Cell proliferation induced by ICT and DICT was completely antagonized by ICI182,780. ICT and DICT increased progestogen receptor (PR) at mRNA levels at 48 h after treatment, although the effects were not as prominent as 17beta-estradiol (E2). Those phenomena were not observed with ICA. Results demonstrate that ICT and DICT (nonconjugated forms) possess estrogen-like activity; however, ICA appears to have no estrogenicity in the MCF-7 cell lin e model in vitro.
The study clearly states that ICA has no effect on estradiol, and has no estrogenicity itself. And we use ICARIIN, not ICARIINS- this is why Icariins can contain all of these other estrogenic substances and microfractions- icariin clearly does not. |
Vitruvian, I've already discussed what you posted. The metabolites talked about in that study were shown to be derived from gut bacteria in the normal flora. i.e. When the molecule icariin is ingested, it TURNS IN TO the icariin metabolites cited above. There is no "unnatural enzymatic" reaction taken place. Nice try though!
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You make it sound like I was trying to pull a fast one or something.... LOL I was simply presenting the facts the way I, as well as virtually all real world feedback, see them. I can see where you are coming from, but don't feel it's accurate. I am still left wondering where it says how they derived the metabolites from Icariin, and I see no response to the other data stated that in my eyes greatly outweighs 1 study based on 2 metabolites. Regardless, you say potato, I say potato. Applied Nutriceuticals Representative
www.appliednutriceuticals.com
Better Results Through Science
Drive+RPM: It doesn't get any better
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| QUOTE (Vitruvian @ Aug 21 2008, 04:29 PM) | You make it sound like I was trying to pull a fast one or something.... LOL
I was simply presenting the facts the way I, as well as virtually all real world feedback, see them.
I can see where you are coming from, but don't feel it's accurate. I am still left wondering where it says how they derived the metabolites from Icariin, and I see no response to the other data stated that in my eyes greatly outweighs 1 study based on 2 metabolites.
Regardless, you say potato, I say potato. |
This is not a situation of miscommunication. I have the full-text which explains how the metabolites are relevant to the discussion. This thread may explain some of the misunderstandings: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php...223&postcount=1
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^ If I didn't know any better, I'd think someone is taking this quite personally! Never had your opinion questioned before? I am not trying to discredit you or argue man. Just stating a disagreement. Example: So if I can post one study saying creatine has potential for a unwanted side effects, you gonna tell people not to use it, even though every other sign points to it being a go? No need to answer.... a back and forth will be pointless. Regards. Applied Nutriceuticals Representative
www.appliednutriceuticals.com
Better Results Through Science
Drive+RPM: It doesn't get any better
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| QUOTE (Vitruvian @ Aug 21 2008, 08:31 PM) | ^ If I didn't know any better, I'd think someone is taking this quite personally! Never had your opinion questioned before? I am not trying to discredit you or argue man. Just stating a disagreement.
Example: So if I can post one study saying creatine has potential for a unwanted side effects, you gonna tell people not to use it, even though every other sign points to it being a go? No need to answer.... a back and forth will be pointless.
Regards. |
The thread I mentioned used 4 or 5 different studies to prove my point. So, it's not like I'm just randomly pulling this outa my ass. BTW, Naringin is also estrogenic... Nevertheless, NeoVar looks pretty good and Osteo-Sport appears pretty innovative, so good luck with that. Also if I were you, I would have left out the "CGC2 Joint Regeneration Matrix," since it is absurdedly underdosed, and you already have a cissus product. The "Joint-Glide Mobility Complex" is interesting enough on its own to sell product (especially with the curcumin + piperine combo). If I was rich I'd pick up a bottle today.
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| QUOTE (TheDiesel @ Aug 21 2008, 11:39 PM) | | QUOTE (Vitruvian @ Aug 21 2008, 08:31 PM) | ^ If I didn't know any better, I'd think someone is taking this quite personally! Never had your opinion questioned before? I am not trying to discredit you or argue man. Just stating a disagreement.
Example: So if I can post one study saying creatine has potential for a unwanted side effects, you gonna tell people not to use it, even though every other sign points to it being a go? No need to answer.... a back and forth will be pointless.
Regards. |
The thread I mentioned used 4 or 5 different studies to prove my point. So, it's not like I'm just randomly pulling this outa my ass. BTW, Naringin is also estrogenic... Nevertheless, NeoVar looks pretty good and Osteo-Sport appears pretty innovative, so good luck with that. Also if I were you, I would have left out the "CGC2 Joint Regeneration Matrix," since it is absurdedly underdosed, and you already have a cissus product. The "Joint-Glide Mobility Complex" is interesting enough on its own to sell product (especially with the curcumin + piperine combo). If I was rich I'd pick up a bottle today. |
Correct, you're not pulling it out of your ass. You've PROVEN that Icariin METABOLITES have the POTENTIAL to be estrogenic, when converted by an ENZYME THAT THE HUMAN BODY DOES NOT HAVE. You have supported this with discussion by some VERY brilliant minds, your own included, who have HYPOTHESIZED that the bacteria in the human gut can THEORETICALLY produce enough of this enzyme to make a difference. In the mean time, the extremely large elephant in the room shows that all this theory is not panning out..... because there are very few if any issues popping up with estrogenic effects resulting from Icariin. Not just with AN's products, but with any of the other icariin products that popped into the market shortly thereafter. You've held tight to icariin being estrogenic, but haven't address it's competition for estrogen receptor's coupled with icariin NOT being estrogenic. The additional drop in cortisol leads to a very positive skew of the T:C ratio. As for Osteo-Sport.... it's a very good product, thanks. Nothing there is underdosed in use, and yes, we do have another cissus product. Multiple cissus products fro multiple markets and consumers.
Applied Nutriceuticals Representative
www.appliednutriceuticals.com
Better Results Through Science
Drive+RPM: It doesn't get any better
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Detroit Diesel
Group: Advanced Members
Posts: 1133
Member No.: 149007
Joined: 10-May 07
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Man Vit - arguments follow you around buddy. I might try the RPM Drive stack at some point... I seem to be randomly losing weight. I have phases where i will add 10lbs in 2 months then lose 6-7 of them in 1-2 weeks. I dont understand it and it's really frustrating. What sorts of crap can i expect from this stack? please refrain from typing the "skin bursting pump" bullshit they make you post, be legit with me.
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| QUOTE (OmniRed @ Aug 22 2008, 10:16 AM) | Man Vit - arguments follow you around buddy.
I might try the RPM Drive stack at some point... I seem to be randomly losing weight.
I have phases where i will add 10lbs in 2 months then lose 6-7 of them in 1-2 weeks. I dont understand it and it's really frustrating.
What sorts of crap can i expect from this stack?
please refrain from typing the "skin bursting pump" bullshit they make you post, be legit with me. |
hahaha... you're tellin me man! As for weight loss.... is most of it fat loss, water, lean mass? And nope... not gonna mention a skin split. If I have mentioned that, I apologize. And you continue to act as if "they" tell me what to do. No one is directing my actions in the slightest, friend. I am kinda hoping to see the full text of this study posted so I can see what Diesel is really basing his opinions on. I mean... let's think of this.... if bacteria in the gut can produce a lot of cellulase, then in theory shouldn't we be able to digest cellulose? I am curious as to whether cellulase levels used to convert the icariin are mentioned in the study, and then if it is known how much bacteria can produce in the human body. As for naringin.... i'll post more later  Applied Nutriceuticals Representative
www.appliednutriceuticals.com
Better Results Through Science
Drive+RPM: It doesn't get any better
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Best supp no pct
