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 Any certain category you are looking for? Lots of good options above... I am partial to a couple of them  . Also, 6-oxo is a good product thats pretty safe, as is Activate. X-Factor you have to research and make your own judgment call on. Another to consider is Neovar.... quickly becoming my favorite supplement. Applied Nutriceuticals Representative
www.appliednutriceuticals.com
Better Results Through Science
Drive+RPM: It doesn't get any better
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icariin - pretty good for its osteogenic and NO properties, but with horribly estrogenic metabolites, i'd stay far far away androstenetrione - a decent AI stacked with an androgen, but alone, its too anti-androgenic, and it barely dampens estrogen production. i would only use during a non-aromatizing steroid cycle, only as a means to elevate sex driveformestane - completely badass prohormone. nuff said
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| QUOTE (david100proof @ Aug 19 2008, 06:42 PM) | | SIZE-ON |
Thanks for the help bros ive narrowed it down lol....... Powerfullxfactormass fx hyperdrolAlso ive been reading a lot about these two supps soon to be out max-out and prime
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Guru
Group: Advanced Members
Posts: 2576
Member No.: 82406
Joined: 31-July 05
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Now Foods Tribulus 1000mgTake 6,000mg a day no pct needed Take 3,000mg 2-3 hours prior to lifting Take the other 3,000mg Right before bed. Enjoy the strength and size difference.
HANDLEBARSI believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs. —Thomas Jefferson, 1802
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| QUOTE (joseph23573 @ Aug 20 2008, 09:34 AM) | DIESEL:
icariin has estrogenic metabolites? im very sensitive to estro and had no problems with horny goat weed at doses upwards and over 2g a day of either.... tribulus gives me more estro sides than HGW or icariin does... interesting
I like to stack inhibit E (only one cap at night) with ZMA, icariin, horny goat weed, maca, and powerfull
i get more compliments now than I ever have as far as size and strength, however, im nowhere near as cut as I used to be, which is due to myself not using steroids any longer.
formestane a prohormone? explain.... |
Icariin has a metabolite that is 94% as strong as estradiol. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1632329...Pubmed_RVDocSumAs discussed on the thread, the amount of metabolite produced will be dependent on the individual: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php...543&postcount=8So the higher percent icariin extract, the more likely the estrogenic metabolites will be produced. Formestane (4OHA) is the prohormone to 4-hydroxytestosterone (4OHT). http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1284430...Pubmed_RVDocSum
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| QUOTE (joseph23573 @ Aug 20 2008, 12:03 PM) | Diesel, the odd thing is, tribulus seems to cause wayyy more estro related sides vs icariin.....
as pointed out, most ppl are sensitive to tribulus which purportedly has low estro sides.... |
The latest research has demonstrated tribulus's capacity to stimulate DHEA. As you know, DHEA and its metabolite (5A) can directly stimulate estrogen receptors. For me, tribulus elicits no estrogenic sides, possibily because it has more of an antagonistic nature towards progestrogenic receptors. It also attaches weakly to SHBG, freeing testosterone - as do a lot of phytohormones.
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| QUOTE (accent115 @ Aug 20 2008, 12:43 PM) | | QUOTE (joseph23573 @ Aug 20 2008, 12:36 PM) | so since tribulus can easily stimulate DHEA, it can increase testosterone, and estrogen, right? the progesterone affects make sense, if someone gets estro sides from trib, its prob actually progesterone.
How come I can dose icariin at high doses and get no sides? |
He said the metabolites produced are individually based
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Exactly. Icariin is metabolized in the gut by natural bacterial flora. People have different flora depending on many different factors (ethnicity, food choice, exc). For example, if you take an oral antibiotic, the natural flora will be disrupted and can be replaced by a different bacterial population (or %). Some people can digest particular foods better than others, which would influence the amount of metabolites produced (gastrointestinal pharmacokinetics).
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| QUOTE (joseph23573 @ Aug 20 2008, 01:29 PM) | If icariin is a testosterone mimetic, when metabolized it acts like test in the body, right? It has no affects on test levels?
all I know is trib gives me gyno like sides at high doses and HGW and icariin do just the opposite... |
The study which determined icariin to be a 'testosterone mimetic' was performed on hypogonadal mice and is not relevent to normal humans. In order to make the mice hypogondal, they actually injected a toxin (cyclophosphamide i.p.) in order to damage their reproductive system. As I said earlier, icariin's nitric oxide and osteogenic capability is well documented, but its estrogenic potential is a little worrying. And if you are not experiencing negative estrogenic sides from supplementing with icariin, its definitely possible that you do not contain the necessary bacteria in order to metabolize it. Keep in mind that unmetabolized icariin has zero estrogenic potential.
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There's quite a few factors that come into play on that Icariin being estrogenic topic.... and only 1 remotely worthwhile study saying so. The vast majority of research, studies, and feedback say the complete opposite. I only glanced at the study.... but didn't it mention the plant species cultivated plays a role as well? As for Formestane, I have heard some good things on that. Does anyone know....Is it legal in natural organizations? Applied Nutriceuticals Representative
www.appliednutriceuticals.com
Better Results Through Science
Drive+RPM: It doesn't get any better
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Best supp no pct
