Swank's Cutting Diet (Cont'd from other thread)

1Fast400 Forums > Diet & Nutrition

Posted by: swankinrosco Jul 31 2008, 08:35 AM

I didn't want to keep that thread bumped about my cut, so I created this thread. Below is my updated diet as of right now. After deciding I wasn't comfortable going with the CKD until I'm sporting a lower BF%, I decided to aim for a 1:1:1 ratio as suggested by sarge, but with the protein intake aimed at 1.5xLBM it's more of a 30%, 30%, 40%

(time)
(serving) (food)
(total cals) (g F) (g C) (g P)

800am (Breakfast C & P)
1 Whey/Casein (mixed)
1.5 Brown Rice
0.2 Carb Powder
406.95kcals - 3.75gF 63.3gC 30gP

1030am (Snack F & P)
4 Large Egg Whites
.66 Flax Oil
1 Almonds
290.79kcals - 21.73gF 3.8gC 20gP

100pm (Lunch F & P)
1 Chicken Breast
1 Almonds
293.5kcals - 17.5gF 3gC 31gP

400pm (Snack/PREWO P & C)
1 Chicken Breast
0.5 Brown Rice
212.25kcals - 4.25gF 16.5gC 27gP

630pm (POSTWO P & C)
1.75 Optimum Nutrition 100% Gold Whey
1 Cytosport Carb Powder
428.63kcals - 2.625gF 59.25gC 42gP

730pm (Dinner P & F)
1 Chicken Breast
0.5 Extra Virgin Olive Oil
194kcals - 10.5gF 0gC 25gP

930pm (Stomach Filler, Pre Bed P & F)
1 Natural PB
1 Optimum Nutrition Casein Protein
214kcals - 9gF 5.4gC 27.85gP

TOTAL DAILY
2040.62kcals
30.6% 69.36gF
29.6% 151.3gC
39.8% 202.85gP

(I fall somewhere below)
150# LBM: 1741kcals BMR
@ 1.35: 2350(-500) = 1850
@ 1.55: 2699(-500) = 2199

140# LBM: 1683kcals BMR
@ 1.35: 2272(-500) = 1772
@ 1.55: 2609(-500) = 2109

My Training

Cardio Note: I'm 24yo, So my max heart BPM is around 195.

Monday
AM - Medium Intensity Cardio for ~30min (keeping heart BPM above low range and below high range; 140-165)
PM - Legs/Shoulders/Traps

Tuesday
AM - Higher Intensity Cardio for 20-30min (getting heart BPM to safe limit, bringing down to top of medium range, repeat; 155-189)
PM - Abs (Emphasis on Transverse Abdominis (TA) and Lumbar Multifidus (MF), then Upper Abs, Lower Abs, Obliques)

Wednesday
AM - Medium Intensity Cardio ~30min
PM - Chest/Triceps

Thursday
AM - Higher Intensity Cardio ~20-30min
PM - Abs (TA/MF, Upper, Lower, Oblique)

Friday
AM - Medium Intensity Cardio ~30min
PM - Back/Biceps

Saturday (Optional, depends on my Friday night, how much rest I need and time I have)
AM - Higher Intensity Cardio ~20-30min
PM - Abs (TA/MF, Upper, Lower, Oblique)

Sunday OFF DAY

Okay first thing's first. Any immediate feedback that comes to mind from reviewing the above, is welcomed.

First thing in the morning I am doing cardio on an empty stomach. When I get back to the house after the cardio, I take a shot of whey/casien protein (1/2 scoop of each), about 24g protein. Then I warm up some brown rice, and attempt my AM carb intake.

Here's a question: would there be any negatives if I were to add like a 1/4 scoop of my cytosport carb powder (~13g carbs) to this morning shake, which i take in just before i hit up the brown rice??

This would help me get that carb number up a bit (although I calculated it in above), and I'm also thinking it would be beneficial to replenishing my body from the cardio, but I really don't want to hurt my fat-loss gains or have un-needed calories.

Another question: I understand "Dairy" in general isn't the best because it softens the skin (something with the lactose in the sugar??).. Does Casein protein powder exhibit this same drawback?

I've cut string cheese and non-fat milk/yogurt out of my diet entirely (aside from the damn sugar) because I don't want this "softening" going on for the next few months while I cut.

Aside from what you see here, that's about it. I am a bit OCD and maybe am not taking in enough calories... I don't want to take in too much in case I miss a day here or there due to needing to catch up on sleep or a business dinner, etc.

I also don't want to increase my carb intake pre-workout as I'm trying to stay as far away from non-breakfast and non-postworkout carbs as possible, which is proving to give me a tough time getting my carb intake done right.

If I need to increase Calories, I think my first option would be to increase my Fat intake, as I'm comfortable with the protein as it is right now... Thoughts on this?

Thank you all in advance, this is by far the most effective diet-planning I've done yet.

Posted by: accent115 Jul 31 2008, 10:27 AM

I'd lose the carb powder in your first meal

Workout looks good I'd like to see what you're doing for actual sets/reps.
Little hardcore on the cardio. I'd start lower and add more in as your body adjusts. I'd do the same with your calories as well start around 2200 for a week or so then taper down. Sarge will probably be able to chime in better on your ketosis diet, but it looks good for a normal cut.
Here's some good info on a similar cutting diet.

http://www.scivationbooks.com/

Posted by: swankinrosco Jul 31 2008, 11:23 AM

i really appreciate the serious reply

QUOTE (accent)

Little hardcore on the cardio. I'd start lower and add more in as your body adjusts. I'd do the same with your calories as well start around 2200 for a week or so then taper down.

If I were to add cals to this it would be in fat and protein, don't know how that would effect the diet --- I guess Sarge could offer his 0.02$ on that one...

I will update the OP with the actual excersizes..

Posted by: hadi_D Jul 31 2008, 11:43 AM

Well it depends on what kind of Cardio you are doing. For keeping your Metabolism high pretty much all day. I would suggest Sprinting, Also I started using the Stair master. I dont want to raise the heart rate too high so I stay on level 3,4,5, but mainly 4. Its a slow pace, though I cant believe how much I am sweating just on level 3 even! Also it doesnt make sense why you are doing cardio on empty stomach. Thats a big No no! Your already have been sleeping for 8 hours (hopefully), so your body has not eaten since then. And on top of that your doing cardio, its just going to eat your muscle tissue since your Glycogen stores are low from the night. And lean muscle is like Gold! Loose that, and your metabolism slows, fat storage starts, Gain alot of water weight, cant eat as much then, since it takes around 30-50 calories per pound of muscle to maintain. So as soon as you wake up take some AAKG, then your 1.5 scoops of whey with water, or Unsweetend light silk soy milk, 80 cals, 3 carbs, 6g of protein per 8oz. Then do some cardio.

Posted by: swankinrosco Jul 31 2008, 11:56 AM

QUOTE (hadi_D @ Jul 31 2008, 11:43 AM)

i think you might be the first person i've heard say cardio on an empty stomach is not good for cutting...

Posted by: accent115 Jul 31 2008, 12:02 PM

Did you add the lifts?

Posted by: accent115 Jul 31 2008, 12:08 PM

The idea behind doing cardio on an empty stomach is because glycogen levels are low, so it's ideal to add in some form of bcaa's or a protein shake works in order to detur muscle burning. However normal whey has a significant insulin spike which would hurt fat burning.

Here's some info for after

http://forums.bulknutrition.com/?showtopic=29592&st=0&#entry323201

and yes, no need for dairy.

Posted by: ShakesAllDay Jul 31 2008, 12:37 PM

I 2nd the recommendation to adding whey/BCAAs pre-cardio.

Also, ditch the long distance running for a bit. Do some sprinting. I just started a little over a month ago and it is awesome.

If you are feeling saucy, pick up some agility cones (or small flat-topped funnels). Then you can do sprint/agility drills. My partner have been doing them for time. It's pretty fun, but GRUELING!

Posted by: swankinrosco Jul 31 2008, 01:22 PM

QUOTE (accent115 @ Jul 31 2008, 12:08 PM)

and yes, no need for dairy.

yeah --- but what about casien protein???

as for the BCAAs before AM cardio, how's a serving of bcaa powder with some h20 before I head out?

I'd prefer not to do whey pre-cardio as it spikes insulin...

PS- Shakes, what's up man, how've you been? Where's the hippy guy - can't remember his name... Also Trouble, lol where'd she get to?

Another question, when the Beta Alanine arrives, how should I dose it?

Posted by: accent115 Jul 31 2008, 01:25 PM

QUOTE (swankinrosco @ Jul 31 2008, 01:22 PM)

QUOTE (accent115 @ Jul 31 2008, 12:08 PM)

and yes, no need for dairy.

yeah --- but what about casien protein???

That's fine, i'm assuming youre referring to the protein supplement, not the protein you'd get from milk etc.

Posted by: swankinrosco Jul 31 2008, 01:44 PM

QUOTE (accent115 @ Jul 31 2008, 01:25 PM)

QUOTE (swankinrosco @ Jul 31 2008, 01:22 PM)

QUOTE (accent115 @ Jul 31 2008, 12:08 PM)

and yes, no need for dairy.

yeah --- but what about casien protein???

That's fine, i'm assuming youre referring to the protein supplement, not the protein you'd get from milk etc.

yes the casein powder..

i read the post-cardio food article from dr. x, and i don't feel that my breakfast is that far off. i come in from the run, hit a shot of whey and get to some brown rice... am i eating too much brown rice, or ???

Posted by: accent115 Jul 31 2008, 02:02 PM

You might wanna lower it to around 40g

Posted by: ShakesAllDay Jul 31 2008, 02:12 PM

Dairy is fine. None of us are competing, are we? There are much bigger downfalls to our training and diet than eating/drinking dairy products.

QUOTE

I'd prefer not to do whey pre-cardio as it spikes insulin...

Working out itself spikes insulin. It's not always a bad thing. Whey would be fine.

QUOTE

PS- Shakes, what's up man, how've you been? Where's the hippy guy - can't remember his name... Also Trouble, lol where'd she get to?

Word. Hippy guy = Agnostic Front? He's been outy for a bit. You can find him on MySpace.

Trouble was ousted (ran off) a couple years ago. People were giving her a hard time for whatever reason and she jetted. I haven't seen her post on other boards, either (AM, M&M, Avant, etc.).

Didn't you have the bouncing boobies as your avy back in the day? Show me the money!

QUOTE

Another question, when the Beta Alanine arrives, how should I dose it?

I would start low w/ the BA, maybe 2g per dose. You will get that niacin like flush/tingle at first. I used to do 2g pre and 2g post.

Posted by: swankinrosco Jul 31 2008, 02:31 PM

QUOTE (ShakesAllDay @ Jul 31 2008, 02:12 PM)

Dairy is fine. None of us are competing, are we? There are much bigger downfalls to our training and diet than eating/drinking dairy products.

QUOTE

I'd prefer not to do whey pre-cardio as it spikes insulin...

Working out itself spikes insulin. It's not always a bad thing. Whey would be fine.

QUOTE

PS- Shakes, what's up man, how've you been? Where's the hippy guy - can't remember his name... Also Trouble, lol where'd she get to?

QUOTE

Another question, when the Beta Alanine arrives, how should I dose it?

I would start low w/ the BA, maybe 2g per dose. You will get that niacin like flush/tingle at first. I used to do 2g pre and 2g post.

Agnostic Front, yeah...

Let me ask this Shakes, if I take the BCAAs PRE Cardio, how impactful would the Whey be, Pre Cardio? ... Especially since I'll be taking some immediately post cardio ?

If I take a good dose of BCAAs will that essentially rule out the need for the Whey?

I'm really busting my ass here to shred 19-25 lbs in 13 weeks, at least this is the plan.

Posted by: ShakesAllDay Jul 31 2008, 02:40 PM

QUOTE (swankinrosco @ Jul 31 2008, 02:31 PM)

Let me ask this Shakes, if I take the BCAAs PRE Cardio, how impactful would the Whey be, Pre Cardio? ... Especially since I'll be taking some immediately post cardio ?

If I take a good dose of BCAAs will that essentially rule out the need for the Whey?

I'm really busting my ass here to shred 19-25 lbs in 13 weeks, at least this is the plan.

If you are taking aminos pre-workout, then whey would be a bit redundant.

I would worry less about the whey/BCAA pre-cardio and more about putting more time in. Fuck it, run 2x a day. It's going to be more about burning those calories, and the measly amount regarding what a person takes pre-cardio will not matter much.

I believe I saw a study or two that compared taking whey vs. empty stomach pre-cardio. I believe the result was an increase in retained LBM, not sure about the effects on fat loss.

Also, there is a lot of anecdotal evidence that speak in favor of whey vs. empty stomach.

But, do your own research, as I may be mistaken.

Also, vary up your cardio routine. It's no different than varying a lifting routine. Do sprints, do mid-distance runs, do long distance jogs, jump rope, do some CrossFit stuff. Keep it interesting and you will have no problem putting in the extra time.

Posted by: swankinrosco Jul 31 2008, 02:59 PM

Server keeps timing out when I try to edit the OP, so here's an updated food plan, based on the cardio-eating recommendations. I added some Oats to my Post-Cardio Whey, and added an Egg to my Brown Rice (Primary daily carb-up)...

(time)
(serving) (food)
(total cals) (g F) (g C) (g P)

700am (Post Cardio C & P)
1 Whey/Casein (mixed)
1 Quaker Oats
260.5kcals - 4.5gF 26gC 29gP

800am (Breakfast C & P)
1 Brown Rice
1 Large Egg White
305.05kcals - 1.6gF 33.2gC 7.5gP

1030am (Snack F & P)
4 Large Egg Whites
.66 Flax Oil
1 Almonds
290.79kcals - 21.73gF 3.8gC 20gP

100pm (Lunch F & P)
1 Chicken Breast
1 Almonds
293.5kcals - 17.5gF 3gC 31gP

400pm (Snack/PREWO P & C)
1 Chicken Breast
0.5 Brown Rice
212.25kcals - 4.25gF 16.5gC 27gP

630pm (POSTWO P & C)
1.75 Optimum Nutrition 100% Gold Whey
1 Cytosport Carb Powder
428.63kcals - 2.625gF 59.25gC 42gP

730pm (Dinner P & F)
1 Chicken Breast
0.5 Extra Virgin Olive Oil
194kcals - 10.5gF 0gC 25gP

930pm (Stomach Filler, Pre Sleep P & F)
1 Natural PB
1 Optimum Nutrition Casein Protein
214kcals - 9gF 5.4gC 27.85gP

TOTAL DAILY
2071.3684
31.16% 71.7gF
28.42% 141.15gC
40.43% 209.35gP

(I fall somewhere below)
150# LBM: 1741kcals BMR
@ 1.35: 2350(-500) = 1850
@ 1.55: 2699(-500) = 2199

140# LBM: 1683kcals BMR
@ 1.35: 2272(-500) = 1772
@ 1.55: 2609(-500) = 2109

Posted by: swankinrosco Jul 31 2008, 03:04 PM

QUOTE (ShakesAllDay @ Jul 31 2008, 02:40 PM)

QUOTE (swankinrosco @ Jul 31 2008, 02:31 PM)

i'm not worried about putting in the time... as you can see, i've got 6 days a week here devoted to cardio and lifting. as for mixing it up, yeah that's great, i'm just giving you guys a sample of what i've been doing for the last couple weeks.

anyhow, i'm all for retaining LBM, if the whey will prevent LBM loss, then hell yes. but if BCAAs will do the same thing .... or if whey will hinder fat loss .... i'm not so sure what route I'd like to take.

I'm anxious to hear Dr. X's opinion on this one really...

Posted by: ShakesAllDay Jul 31 2008, 05:13 PM

QUOTE (swankinrosco @ Jul 31 2008, 03:04 PM)

QUOTE (ShakesAllDay @ Jul 31 2008, 02:40 PM)

QUOTE (swankinrosco @ Jul 31 2008, 02:31 PM)

You wanna know when to eat an apple?

Well, fuck you then, punk!

Posted by: swankinrosco Jul 31 2008, 07:13 PM

LOL Shakes...

Nobody wants to bust their ass for 13 weeks to find out they were hindering themselves all along

Besides, I PM'd the Doctor to see if he would come add his two cents, and he's not shown up so maybe he doesn't know what's most efficient either

Posted by: accent115 Jul 31 2008, 08:06 PM

BCAAs are obviously more efficient, but more expensive. The protein is already broken down into what you want. You should sip the bcaas throughout your cardio and a little before.

Posted by: swankinrosco Aug 1 2008, 12:46 PM

Well I found a rediculously large thread over at AM on this very subject....

Most common thoughts are

65% Heart Rate Cardio for 30-45min, empty stomach is fine
85%+ Heart Rate Cardio (HIIT) for 15-30min, protein/BCAAs pre-cardio is important

I'm waiting to hear back from a few PMs over there to get the skinny on carbs pre-HIIT as there's some debate on that.

Will keep you kids posted

QUOTE (accent)

BCAAs are obviously more efficient, but more expensive. The protein is already broken down into what you want. You should sip the bcaas throughout your cardio and a little before.

when I said efficient, I was speaking muscle loss to fat loss of protein in stomach vs bcaas only

Posted by: SargeS Aug 2 2008, 01:49 PM

Swank,

You do alot for a 98 year old,

(that's what your personal info says)

What is your age, sex, goals?

First of all, morning cardio on empty is a good thing, Just don't overdo it <30 mins.
Your body will go into lipolysis mode using Glucagon for fat release. Eat right after so that the brain doesn't shift into starvation mode which will eat up muscle glycogen.
Add some fat to your first meal, you want to keep blood glucose levels steady not spikey. MCT oil worked well for me, no taste was better than the Flax oil gross out. It helped out prior to lifting. Trade out a whole egg or 2 to your breakfast, they're only 60 calories each. Egg whites have no taste.
Your meals look boring, how many times can you eat chicken breast? Don't knock beef. The bullshit stories your doctor preaches about saturated fat is wet behind the ears. The research started in 1953 and has not been verified.
I just read a story in Men's Health from 11/07 (I think the date is right) about saturated fats (from meat) not being the problem with heart health like they originally thought. The problem has always been with sugar, starches, and trans fats. Lean red meat on occasion is good for you and helps promote muscle growth.
They even stated a recent 8 year $725,000,000 government study called the Womens Health Initiative using 20,000 women on low saturated fat diets did NOT reduce the incidence of cardio related events or strokes. Go Beef! The fats from meat were mainly Lauric, Palmitic, and Stearic acids. Lauric does not affect Cholesterol, Palmitic and Stearic will raise total cholesterol but...(the big BUT) the total is equal LDL and HDL 1:1 which will lower the ratio of LDL/HDL. This is why ancient tribes and Eskimos don't have heart attacks from eating all the meat that they eat. Also, because they don't have sugar, processed carbs, and trans fats in their foods.

Pick foods that you will enjoy. I think a successful diet has to have the ingredients that will make you stick with it. Nobody wants to have to force down things that they don't like.

Cardio- stick with anaerobic, or at least incorporate some into it. I would go with speed jump rope (my favorite) or sprinting. Try some HIIT, if you think you can handle it.

And the most important thing I can say is this...No matter how well you plan it out...you will lose muscle with your weight loss. The reason weight lifters and body builders are successful over couch potatoes is WE ALSO BUILD MUSCLE. Lift weights to keep/add muscle.
CKD for me netted a 3 pound weight loss (all fat) in 2 weeks. My muscles felt fuller, the waistline dropped 2+ inches...not bad for a 47 year old. You may want to try it down the road. It even helped with hunger pangs because of no carbs.
I'll check back in a couple of days.

Posted by: swankinrosco Aug 4 2008, 08:13 AM

QUOTE (Sarge)

What is your age, sex, goals?

24 - Male - Cut until end of October, take a 2-3 week break (maintenance), then depending on the success of the cut, either cut or bulk for another 2+ months

QUOTE (Sarge)

Add some fat to your first meal, you want to keep blood glucose levels steady not spikey.

Okay now this seems to conflict with much of what I've read. I'm keeping my carbs to primarily AM (post cardio), a small portion pre SFW, and then a good portion post SFW. I've read time and again it's best to keep fat and carbs separated, as carbs will enhance storage of fat. The degree of this truth may be unknown, but what is known is that I'm taking in the majority of my carbs in the morning, adding fat to this intake seems kind of counter intuitive based on what I've read. I haven't read any of the literature on your suggested "Isocaloric" diet, I've just the macronutrient split as a guide for putting my meal-plan together. As I said above, I actually ended with a split closer to 30F 30C 40P. Could you please discuss this a bit more??

QUOTE (Sarge)

MCT oil worked well for me, no taste was better than the Flax oil gross out.

I actually like the taste of flax oil, so this isn't really an issue for me

QUOTE (Sarge)

Trade out a whole egg or 2 to your breakfast, they're only 60 calories each. Egg whites have no taste.

Again I'm fine with egg whites vs whole eggs (hard boiled), I've a very disciplined palette growing up with a BSN/RN as a mother, I enjoy light foods..

QUOTE (Sarge)

Your meals look boring, how many times can you eat chicken breast? Don't knock beef. The bullshit stories your doctor preaches about saturated fat is wet behind the ears.

Good to know. My meal plan provided IS boring, but it's not the end-all be-all of my food intake, it's just a basic layout to give you guys an idea of the proportions of what I'm eating and when. I have that as a road map, I substitute lean pork/beef, fish (grouper, dolphin, salmon), turkey burgers, and even jumbo shrimp (6g protein per shrimp is awesome, too bad they're so high in cholesterol!!!)...

QUOTE (Sarge)

Nobody wants to have to force down things that they don't like.

Again to reiterate, I appreciate the sentiment but this is certainly not the case for me

QUOTE (Sarge)

Cardio- stick with anaerobic, or at least incorporate some into it. I would go with speed jump rope (my favorite) or sprinting. Try some HIIT, if you think you can handle it.

As shown in my posts above, I do cardio in the AM and weights in the PM.. I'm doing this kind of excersize (80-90% bpm intensity - intervals) for 20-30min 2-3 times a week (in between lift days). On Lift days I'm doing 30min of steady state 60-70% intensity (walking with a touch of jogging to spike bpm up) for "fat burn"..

QUOTE (Sarge)

CKD ... You may want to try it down the road. It even helped with hunger pangs because of no carbs.

I'm not very comfortable with this yet.. I'm going to wait to try this out until I bring my BF lower (under 12-15%)

Posted by: SargeS Aug 4 2008, 10:23 AM

Ahhhhh...where do I start?

30% fat is okay, I just didn't like anything less than that. But, I think that has to be a part of all meals except PWO carb-up to replenish glycogen and aminos.

Carbs alone post cardio will immediately replenish spent liver glycogen. The reasons- carbs are fast digesting, they break down quickly in the stomach and are propelled into the small intestine. This is where (and only where) nutrients are taken into the bloodstream.
Fats delay the digestion process because they combine with stomach contents and slow the breakdown of foods. The longer it takes for the nutrients to replenish glycogen, the longer lipolysis will remain.
The body won't shift to muscle burning (gluconeogenesis) because it recognizes that "feeding" is in progress due to hormone release caused by food in the stomach and the slow emptying into the intestine. Basically, you will stay in fat burning mode longer following cardio. Again, you need to know the GI and GL of foods (glycemic index and glycemic load). Visit www.Mendosa.com
During cardio, the liver is signalled to release glycogen to keep BGL up to protect the body. If liver stores can't keep up, the body will start to shift to lipolysis. This is the reason for empty stomach cardio. Starting with a half-full fuel tank (your blood sugar) will get you into lipolysis faster. Protein pre-cardio, esp. whey will convert to glucose at a rate of about 58% and increase your BGL.
You even stated that you are aware that carbs enhance fat storage...you are correct. Which is why the macronutrient FAT is more important to preventing fat storage. Keep plenty of good fats in the diet...all day. It is the only macronutrient that doesn't convert to glucose (negligible) and effect an insulin release.

All I can say is you have to try different things. The secret is to fool the body by constantly altering the plan.
You should even add Casiene to "just before bed" because it is slow releasing and utilized during the most important time of the day...sleep.

I'm not exactly an expert in the field of nutrition...but I do know that the experts are always way behind the fitness world. Doctors and nutritionists are still telling their clients "eat a healthy low-fat diet with plenty of carbs" "use the food pyramid" etc. etc.

If you do a little math and use the FDA guidelines of 10% cal. of fat and .33 grms of protein/lb weight. You will see that the balance of 80% is carbs (there are no more macronutrients to divide in to here). This is one of the reasons that 2/3 of the US population is overweight or obese. So much for expert advice.

One other thing...don't worry about the cholesterol in shrimp. Only about 25% of the cholesterol you eat has an effect on your cholesterol profile. If you are healthy and have good blood work results...eat up, just don't overdo it. That should be the motto in life...Don't overdo it! That can apply to anything.

Posted by: swankinrosco Aug 4 2008, 03:56 PM

QUOTE (Sarge)

Ahhhhh...where do I start?

Haha, this is a fitting way to begin my reply! The post is too large and keeps timing out, so I'm going to break it down into 2 posts.

First off Sarge, let me stress my appreciation for your time and willingness to help me here, and for all of the information that you're sharing with me.

Please do not misconstrue anything I have or will say as doubting your knowledge. I'm just trying to clarify my own understanding of what you're suggesting to me.

QUOTE (Sarge)

30% fat is okay, I just didn't like anything less than that. But, I think that has to be a part of all meals except PWO carb-up to replenish glycogen and aminos.

I don't know if you've reviewed my diet above, but almost every meal has either nuts, flax oil, fish oil, olive oil, peanut butter, or a variant thereof. Where I am not intaking fat is where I am having my carbs. Primarily post cardio (my breakfast), a small amount Pre-Lifting, and the obvious PWO shake (carb spike).

QUOTE (Sarge)

Carbs alone post cardio will immediately replenish spent liver glycogen.

To be sure I'm not misunderstanding you, this is a good thing in terms of our cutting goals with this nutrition plan, yes? As such, then my post-cardio shake (oats/whey) followed by my carb-up breakfast are planned well. Following both this guideline, and the general BB guideline that carbs should be taken early and PostWO, and preferably no other time.

QUOTE (Sarge)

Fats delay the digestion process because they combine with stomach contents and slow the breakdown of foods. The longer it takes for the nutrients to replenish glycogen, the longer lipolysis will remain.

So then, is the object of this "diet" to maintain lipolysis as much as possible? I understand that to be the case for CKD/TKD/AD...

QUOTE (Sarge)

Basically, you will stay in fat burning mode longer following cardio.

This line confused me, are you suggesting I have fats with my carb up in the AM to slow the digestion of the carbs/protein? If so how does this (or doesn't it) conflict with the notion that fats taken with carb-up is a bad thing? For some reason I'm still confused on this one...

Posted by: swankinrosco Aug 4 2008, 03:57 PM

[quote=Sarge]Again, you need to know the GI and GL of foods (glycemic index and glycemic load). Visit www.Mendosa.com[/quote]

Great link. I'm fairly well read on GL/GI which you would have no way of knowing, so please rest assured any carbs I eat are going to be slow digesting, whole grains, etc (and any fats I take in mono/poly-unsaturated, EFAs, Omegas, etc)..

[quote=Sarge]During cardio, the liver is signalled to release glycogen to keep BGL up to protect the body. If liver stores can't keep up, the body will start to shift to lipolysis. This is the reason for empty stomach cardio. Starting with a half-full fuel tank (your blood sugar) will get you into lipolysis faster. Protein pre-cardio, esp. whey will convert to glucose at a rate of about 58% and increase your BGL.[/quote]
Okay now I don't know if you read any of the conversation above, but there's a large consensus over at AM that the body will do lipolysis only when undergoing lower intensity cardio (55-65% heart beats per minute, % of max). This is why most BBs do incline walking for 30-45min, as it is also believed over at AM (and this is a thread that's been on going for 4 years now) that high intensity cardio (75-95% BPM), including and especially interval training, will put the body into muscle-burning mode. This is why it is recommended to drink down some BCAAs before hand, if not some whey. Supposedly the BCAAs will buffer against muscle breakdown.

[quote=Sarge]You even stated that you are aware that carbs enhance fat storage...you are correct. Which is why the macronutrient FAT is more important to preventing fat storage. Keep plenty of good fats in the diet...all day. It is the only macronutrient that doesn't convert to glucose (negligible) and effect an insulin release.[quote]
Understood, BUT. And this will be a familiar but. This seems to contradict the suggestion that I should add Fats to my carb-meals, since those meals will result in an insulin raise and I would have fats ready to be shuttled, which is why the common impression is that you shouldn't mix carb intake with fat intake...[/quote]

[quote=Sarge]You should even add Casiene to "just before bed" because it is slow releasing and utilized during the most important time of the day...sleep.[/quote]
Check my "Pre-Bed Stomach Filler" meal.... Casein+PB to keep me full all night

[quote=Sarge]One other thing...don't worry about the cholesterol in shrimp. Only about 25% of the cholesterol you eat has an effect on your cholesterol profile. If you are healthy and have good blood work results...eat up.[/quote]
Great news here, they are so easy to whip up on short notice. Microwave, on the grill, and the bag of frozen large shrimp at my grocer is affordable too!

Well, let me know your thoughts on mixing carb and fat intake, especially since my carb intake is crammed into a couple meals.

Thanks again Sarge...

Anyone else who's reading is welcome to jump into the conversation or at least add a few thoughts.

Posted by: DR X Aug 4 2008, 07:31 PM

QUOTE (swankinrosco @ Jul 31 2008, 01:04 PM)

I'm anxious to hear Dr. X's opinion on this one really...

I always go whey and BCAA's pre workout. I am far more concerned about maintaining LBM. Your doing way more cardio then you need by the way, nutritional timing and calories are all you need to adjust to lean up.

Posted by: DR X Aug 4 2008, 07:37 PM

QUOTE (swankinrosco @ Aug 1 2008, 10:46 AM)

65% Heart Rate Cardio for 30-45min, empty stomach is fine
85%+ Heart Rate Cardio (HIIT) for 15-30min, protein/BCAAs pre-cardio is important

I'm waiting to hear back from a few PMs over there to get the skinny on carbs pre-HIIT as there's some debate on that.

Will keep you kids posted

QUOTE (accent)

BCAAs are obviously more efficient, but more expensive. The protein is already broken down into what you want. You should sip the bcaas throughout your cardio and a little before.

when I said efficient, I was speaking muscle loss to fat loss of protein in stomach vs bcaas only

HIIT is my persoanl favority. Again I just go BCAA's and whey.

Posted by: swankinrosco Aug 4 2008, 08:01 PM

whey + bcaas for both low intensity and high intensity/HIIT cardio? or just HIIT stuff?

I know HIIT's benfits are the metabolism boost you receive throughout the day, so all that matters is you get through it without destroying your muscles, but...

I thought low intensity cardio was more about the fat burning during the actual session, thus taking whey before low intensity cardio sessions could hinder the fatloss thereof?

????

anyhow, the cut is going well. i have two old bottles, one of lean xtyreme and one of hyperdrive... i'm going to take these, and also going to try the rpm/drive stack soon

also just received 1000g of beta alanine.

i'm psyched :>

edit- oh and thanks for stopping in the thread, X

Posted by: DR X Aug 5 2008, 12:19 PM

QUOTE (swankinrosco @ Aug 4 2008, 06:01 PM)

I thought low intensity cardio was more about the fat burning during the actual session, thus taking whey before low intensity cardio sessions could hinder the fatloss thereof?

????

anyhow, the cut is going well. i have two old bottles, one of lean xtyreme and one of hyperdrive... i'm going to take these, and also going to try the rpm/drive stack soon

also just received 1000g of beta alanine.

i'm psyched :>

edit- oh and thanks for stopping in the thread, X

Never hindered mine but when it comes down to it. Calories in vs calories out. Cardio is for increasing metabolim anyway.

Posted by: SargeS Aug 6 2008, 04:24 PM

I may have missed a couple of things you posted such as caseine before bed etc.

Yes, the cardio may be a little high which is why I said I prefer speed jump rope. It's short cycles of anaerobic work (like sprinting), HIIT will accomplish the same thing.
"Staying in lipolysis longer"- we're only talking about an hour or so total. If you start cardio (60-70% max HR) and maintain for 30 minutes, then eating a carb meal may stop the fat burning process because the body recogizes glucose uptake and stops excreteing glucagon. All I'm saying is, give the body a few more minutes to burn fat by slowing digestion. After all, you're in a cut mode. You may lose a little muscle by "cutting", you will gain it back when lifting and post workout meals. You have to learn to "know" your body by trying different things. My advice may not work for you as well as it did for me. I know the "Isocaloric" diet was a nice, slow, constant, cut diet for me. After several weeks I had the only six-pack ever in my life (at 36 years old). I was also 5% BF. This was for the EAS competition. I still try to eat Isocalorically as part of my lifestyle. I believe it is the best eating plan for all body types. You can vary protein, carbs, fat to your specific goals.
It sounds like you're on the right path. Try it out and vary things to compensate for shortages.

If you starting Beta Alanine, I can tell you I used Clout by Man. Great stuff, especially the "tingle" after drinking.
To truly test it out. I did calf raises using the whole stack which normally burns the hell out of my calves after 15 reps. After using Clout, I did the calf raises and kept going for 20+ reps and still didn't have the burn as bad. Also, "down the rack" side lateral shoulder raises didn't burn at all (usually it's pretty bad). I think you'll be pleased with it.

Posted by: SargeS Aug 6 2008, 04:31 PM

Sorry, I meant "Body Octane" for Beta Alanine. Good lactic acid buffer.
I used Clout at a different time. Clout has a form of creatine (tri-creatine malate). This will put weight on you.

Posted by: swankinrosco Aug 10 2008, 11:54 AM

Thanks Sarge, will keep you guys posted as I continue.

Things have been going very well, have been keeping to the 40%p 30%f 30%c and things are moving quite well.

Posted by: On3musta Aug 23 2008, 03:58 PM