I am attempting my first pro-hormone at the age of 46. My goals are lean muscle strength (I would rather look like a taurus with the heart of a ferrari than look like a porche with the heart of a yugo) and weight loss....more accurately...continuing weight loss as I have lost approximately 60 lbs and only have a 145 more lbs to lose. (no Typos). I am using a 4ad powder bought here and my intent is to use it only on my 2 weight lifting sessions a week. (2x a day on those days) I have 2 concerns that I think have been answered here in the various posts I have read, but to be certain, I am asking more directly than I have seen so far queried. Using the above described protocol should I have any real concern as to substantially increased estrogen (at my mass I have plenty thank you)? And since I will also be using on an every day basis diim and oatstraw extract,l will the diim take care of the excess bad estrogen? btw, just in case it is important in answering this missive, prior to weight loss described above I weighed approximately 445 lbs.

u weigehd 445Lbs? holy shit

Hello,

First congrads on the weight loss, that is no easy feat. Second, I don't really know if you want to be using PH's to lose weight. I'd suggest an EC(can be bought here at 1fast400 extremely CHEAP) stack, I at 18 years of age weighted 350lbs, and with a simple EC stack and hard work I was able to get down to 215ish 1 year later, started training harder and now I'm back at 240ish(still fat but o well ). Go for it though, 145lbs is nothing once you get the ball rolling its just getting active that is the hardest, good for you. Any further questions, post and I'll do my best. I've battled the weight vs. gaining lean mass/muscle for years, it can be a real struggle.

Thanks,

John

Actually probaly over 445 lbs. I believe I had lost some weight before I went to the hospital (unwillingly) and was weighed by a special weighing machine they had there. Since none of the available machines out sside the hospital weigh more than 350 lbs, I am merely guessing at weight loss based on clothing sizes lost.

I have 2x before lost over 100 lbs but got married after each of those times and gained it all back plus some. And I also went from 254 to 148 when I went to the army after being talked into joining a special ranger trained recon program which was killed by our 'greatest President of all time' James Earl Carter. Still can't believe I voted for the clown in the very first election I voted in. But thanks for the encouragement and advice John. BTW ,I am desirious of all the utilizable advice I can get. The older a person gets the harder it is to lose.
Jim
:

wow, thats a lot of weight you weighed and lost. i wish you luck. i would use ec stack or some other thermogenics and a thyroid booster. maybe some 7oxo. not sure of the best ph's to lose lots of weight, of how safe they would be for major weight loss. but just guessing, m4ohn looks like a good cutting supp, and m-dien could as well. but it comes down to running a major caloric deficit. you need to expend more calories then you take in. you should be running at least a 500 calorie a day deficit from maintenance. so eat lots less, maybe only 1500 calories a day and do more cardio, along with your weight training. like 2 hours a day of cardio. 1 hour in the morning and 1 hour in the evening, plus your weights. you heart rate should be around 150 for the deration of the 2 hours of cardio. again good luck.

Laughing out loud to the max.....2 hours of cardio a day.... ..... Yeah Right. At this weight I can barely walk a mile every 2 days. and by heart beat is closer to 190 doing that. But since apparently I have to go in to even greater detail than desired I may as well get it over with. I was hospitalized with out of control sugar....diabetes...the hospital did not get it under control...only made it worse. With an extremely low carb diet...only carbs are from eggs and Brewer's (ugh to the max) yeast....I managed to get it under control after 2 months of diet, supplements and still too large doses of insulin.... l Also I have an enlarged heart....hmmm diabetes, excessive insulin, and huge weight,,,how could that be...lol.

Also a regrettable acknowledgement of ignorance on my part.....I just finished using the search engine on this site with 4 different queries and a visual inspection of 3 of the lean,,,fat loss etc.. groups. So what is an EC stack? The closest I saw to what it might involve was a 12 hour+ active 4 ad ec which is out of stock.

Jim

Just in case it is not clear...aggressive cardio is out until I have lost substantially more weight and built up a certain amount of conditioning. I expect that will be some time in November when I hope to pass the 300lb mark. As to the low calorie diet...how does 1000 calories on work out days and 700 calories on the other 2 days of the week. (conditioning 3 days ...aggressive HIT of 5 exercises consisting of 1 warm up set of each exercise and single sets of 4 to 7 reps to positive form failure and finishing each set with 8 to 12 additional reps at 70% of the weight starting the set. a timed 1 minute and 40 seconds recovery between finish of a work set and the beginning of next warmup and 1 minute between warmup and work set. Purpose is to max out both the type 1 and type 2 muscle fibers for maximum metabolic boost. When I finish on alternate workouts with either jefferson lifts or bent-leg deadlift there is absolutely nothing left.) Due to the extremely low calorie intake there is a period 2 to 3 hours of lethargy after the weight workout and 30 minutes after conditioning. But my heart beat is elevated to 110+ bpm for 10+ hours after the weight sessions.

ok i see where you are coming from. but it looks like you know what to do until you can get down to weight to do more. eat less do more. 1000 calories might be a little low, but whatever works right. ec stack = ephedra caffine stack, but in light of your health history i retract my statement, i don't think that is wise you use the formentioned. there is most likely some sort of fat burner or metabolic enhancer out there you could take, but i would consult your doctor, before buying or using one. good luck though.

OK... I actually bought several bottles of the raw (not the more expensive ma huang) ephedrine thinking the FDA was serious about banning it. They banned it as a supplement but we who have a bronchial condition as every truck driver and every student studying for a test has, can still buy it from any truck stop and make our own caffeine, ephredine and willow bark stack. However I am holding off on it at present because it stops working after a couple of months. I used it last time I dropped 144 lbs. Thanks for the advice though. I have ordered some bitter melon, bitter orange, and a host of thyroid and other metabolic enhancers that are supposed to retain their metabolic enhancement during continuing use. But they have not got here yet.
Also to keep my metabolism from shutting down I use hoodia and banaba as well as break up my food over 5 meals during the day (mostly aussie caseinate and whey isolate) and a protein shot of 10 grams when I wake up in the middle of my sleep period.
As you can guess from my previous send up what I need is something to recover from my all too successfull metabolic workout which does not add either the appearance of weight (water gain) or real fat problems (estrogen and cortisol). In losing weight the psychological is often as devastating as the real thing. I know use of 4ad can lead to aromatization but I was hoping the small amout I would be using (250 mg with effective dose of 25mg at 2x a day on workout days) and the few days a week I would use it plus the diim would keep it from being a problem. I chose 4 ad because the stories of 1-test leaving you lethargic was more than I thought I wanted to deal with at this time. As to M4OHN this is the only site I have read anything about it and I really would like far more information than I have seen.
Jim

I'm going to go out on a line here and say go with the EC stack. The ephedrine and caffeine can be bought right here at 1fast400.com, the E for $7/60pills, and the caff $5/90 pills. It doesn't get much cheaper then that, any fat loss pill I have ever used/seen costs at least $30+ a bottle, and you could use this EC stack for less then $20 a month even at extreme doses (which I don't recommend but you know your body). The main thing is to just stay focused, and for me, a big bunch of ripped fuel got me moving at 350lbs and let me shed nearly 140lbs. I took the recommended dose of 2caps 3x a day I think it was, and I might be wrong here but that was about 60-80mg of E a day. Earlier I started my own EC stack again (going from current 240lbs to 210ish) and 50mg (2 servings with caffeine) shutdown my whole appetite and I had to force myself to eat. And let me tell you from someone who's been over 300lbs, I can EAT With all of this said, no doctor would ever tell you its alright to due an EC stack with your help conditions and I'm not sure how well this EC stack would factor into your equation. But for $20-30(the cost of 2 bottles E, 2 bottles caff from 1fast400.com), I'd say try it as I'm willing to bet you've spent more then that before on other "weight loss" drugs. Just know your body and if you feel strange, slow down, and don't worry, do things at your pace, no 300lb+ man is going to do cardio for 2 hours a day, hell I do it for 30min and want to die. Just do your best, at least you've taken the time to realize you need to lose weight and you are trying. Most people wouldn't even do that and ignore the problem (kind of like I did as a youngster). As for the PH's, I wouldn't know, I might try them in a few years but right now protein+creatine is working wonders. DO the weight loss first and feel better, then turn into Mr. Olympia

Cheers,

John

you wont notice anything from the pro hormones at all at that weight

go with the effedra caffiene asprine stack or go with xenadrine efx or nrg best non effedra fat burner imo.


I would suggest bumping up the cardio to 3 times a week or more.
the more days you do it the better the results will be!!!!

Hey Bear,
I weighed 410 just a few years ago, and as much as 370 in April 2002. I am now at 226.5 (shooting for 225) so I know what you've been through and what you need to keep doing.

Honestly, I wouldn't use PHs until you get near goal. I've invested about $2,000 in stocking PHs but havent used a single mg yet.......will start my first cycle August 1st.

Until now, my first priority has been losing weight, and gaining muscle has been secondary. Like the old saying goes, you can't serve two masters.

Ephedrine has been a very good tool for me. For the past year or so, I have been 2 months on, 3-4 months off.......basically, when the losses would slow down from diet and exercise I would turn to E.

Keep up the good work!

P.S.......I think 1000 calories/day is too low also. Not that you wouldn't lose like mad, but the chances of being able to stay on it is very slim. My calorie base has been 2000 calories, or even a little more if I was doing a low carb cycle.

The hoped for purpose of the PH is reducing the recovery time from the workout. I cannot afford 3 hours of brain dead lethargy. I did a workout at 5:00 am this morning and even now I want to do absolutely nothing. I stare at the screen here and just wanna knock myself out. I work out early morning sunday and thursday and even though I don't have to get to work until 8:30 a.m. and I drink 4 cups of stong coffee I am just out of it. My post workout drink helps alot....I was even worse off before I got its formula right..

Ok guys let's focus.

My original queries above were:

1. Do I need to be concerned with excessive estrogen with the 4-ad being used just 2 days a week 2x a day on those days (50 mg effective ad a dose) and the additional oak straw extract (avena sativa) daily use (2x a day of 12:1 extract 100 mg) considering my use of diim (25 mg 4x a day daily)?

2. And generally any advice on meeting my goals.

Additional specification of query 2 and additional queries are as follows:

A. What is the consensus of best additional recovery protocol of the afore described workout regimen considering I presently follow up a workout with encapusulated 500mg of lipoic acid, 20 mgs vanadyl sulfate tablets, 2 tps brewers yeast, 20 grams of whey isolate(90%), 1 gram bovine serum powder, 4 grams glutamine, 2.5 gm OKG, 4 gm Glycine, and 4 grams inositol? Do not suggest dextrose, maltrodextrin, or other glycemic activaters. Starting Sunday I will use querie 1 protocol of 4 ad. The 4 ad is supposed to be here tomorrow.

B. An noted previousely I have a supply of ephedrine which I intend to start using in December when hopefully I will be below 300lbs and can make maximum use of its 2 months of actual effectiveness.. I am ordering both oxo 7 and the bulk version of oxo 6 as soon as I get my check at the end of this month. What else would be a recommendation for quick weright loss


And to respond to several who are concerned about my staying on the 700 to 1000 calorie diet. try using hoodia gordonii 488 mg 20:1 extract 5 times a day and see if you can make your self eat more. The damn stuff works...at least the stuff I get from South Africa...The american and frog stuff was ineffective.

Oh Yeah..........This @$#% works. Man I feel like working out again. I hope there is a delay in the senate so I can buy more of this stuff.

Thanks BULK NUTRITION.

Jim