Hi guys!

Please help me choose the fatburner!

For pure results, if money was not an issue, I would stack BioTest's HOT-ROX with Vasopro's Ephedrine HCl & Lipo-6 EF. No lie, this would be costly, but I'm also guessing the potency would be pretty damn pleasing. However, this is also ridiculously expensive (especially the HOT-ROX).

In terms of just pure cost-effectiveness, I would probably go with regular Lipo-6. It's a rather good compound (although 'fat burner' is kind of a misnomer; it's basically an anorectic-repartitioner that optimizes cAMP/thyroid), and it's probably my favorite, 'pre-made' E/C stack.

Once again, any of the non-Ephedrine-containing products can be stacked with Ephedrine HCl, which makes for a really good thermogenic stack...

.

I agree with Loki. Lipo 6 is a great product, but your best results would come from using a few products that comlpiment each other. I've had really good results with this fat loss stack.
ephedrine 25mg 3 times daily
caffeine 200mg 3 times daily
5-htp 50mg 3 times daily
yohimbine hcl 5mg 3 times daily
fish oil 12 grams daily in divided doses

it also works out to be very cost efficient for long term use.

MetaBurn XTP from MRM has picked up quite a bit of speed lately in sales. Oddly enough, not a lot of internet feedback on this one.

I don't really use E/C anymore, but I'd be curious-- anyone out there tried stacking Vasopro with Metaburn XTP?? (because that does have the potential to be goooooood....)

I saw better results with the original version of SAN Tight! than I did with HOT-ROX but it mighta been just me. After that, I saw no point in forking out the extra dough for ROX. To each their own, of course

I don't doubt it, I think Tight is the better stand-alone EF-thermogenic, and I used to be a big fan before they switched over to the proprietary blend (which-- as most know-- just wasn't the same).


BUT, c'mon, HOT-ROX + Lipo-6 EF + Ephedrine HCl beats the pants off the old Tight...

if you head over to biotest, and run a search for hot rox with ephedra, you'll run across tons of posts by cy wilson and bill roberts both stating that hot rox with ephedra is a big no no. They give reasons that the receptors sites will shut down fast. I'd be real curious as to what people think of the reason for not adding ephedra?

I personally think it's a bullshit marketing gimmick designed to keep people from 1. buying E/C products or 2. stacking an E/C product with theirs. For one, ephedrine use will NEVER cause youre beta-2 adrenergic receptors to 'down-regulate'-- that is utter crap. Ephedrine is simply not that specific/potent of a sympathomimetic (vs. something like Clenbuterol, which will cause b-2 downregulation because it has such a pronounced affect on SNS activity) agonist. [edit: to clarify, Clen is a direct agonist of the beta-2 ARs. Conversely, ephedrine is an indirect agonist because it causes the body to release NE/NA (noradrenaline) which subsequently interacts with the beta-2 ARs [among other receptors]] To be perfectly honest, you could run an E/C stack year-round if it made you happier (not that I think this is ideal, I'm just saying it's doable; the E will still be working).

With ephedrine use, the only thing that 'goes away' is the buzz-- the stimulant effect. Ephedrine will still be potentiating thyroid function, will still be repartitioning/conserving glucose, and will still have your skeletal muscles using more FFAs for fuel months after you start using it.

Furthermore, despite what BioTest would lead you to believe, HOT-ROX is not the 'uberthermogenic' of the supplement industry. Basically, it's Guggulsterones (good-- potentiates thyroid), a few neurochemical precursors for appetite restraint/energy (5-HTP converts to 5-HT (serotonin) & there's some l-tyrosine analogue(s) or something in there as well too I think-- can't really remember), Sclaremax (which apparently elevates cAMP-- although I've never seen this proven or documented anywhere) and a Pro-Hormone for 7-OXO-DHEA (also known as 7-Keto-DHEA) which converts @ a high enough rate that they get a decent oral bioavailability out of it. Plus, since they include only a minimal (probably >50mg) of Caffeine, there's absolutely NO reason why you couldn't stack it with ephedrine. Granted, the ephedrine will partially make your skeletal muscle insulin resistant, which I suppose some could erroneously claim would negate some of the repartitioning effects that the 7-Keto would have as a ligand for PPARalpha, but the benefits of stacking 7-Keto with ephedrine far outway the potential (and downright piddly) chance of a few negative physiological interactions.

Unless the give me a better reason than ephedrine "shuts down my receptors" (hint: and they...errr...ummm...can't... ), I say stack to your hearts content-- just make sure you also get a source of caffeine in there (hence the addition of Lipo-6-EF ).


Cheers.

This post has been edited by Loki on Feb 16 2004, 12:40 PM

Oh, and isn't Cy Wilson the guy who tried to convince everyone that 17aa-1-Testosterone wasn't very anabolic? And then when I-- as well as several others-- called him on it, he completely dismissed the levator ani anabolic assay (which is like, the golden standard for research calculations of a steroid's likely anabolic profile) as some 'bunk' voodoo method of androgen research...?

That Cy Wilson????

My opinion... you are best off assembling your own, as money allows. In rough order of importance -->

Ephedrine, 50-75 mg
Caffeine, 200-400 mg
Green tea extract, 500-1000 mg EGCG
Acetyl-L-carnitine, 2-4 g
Choline, 1 g
Calcium citrate, 5-10 g
L-tyrosine, 5-10 g and/or DLPA, 1-3 g
Guggulsterones, 50-200 mg

..And so on. Obiously, this begins to get expensive, but IMO most fat burners are underdosed and/or have ineffective ingredients or bad combinations of ingredients.

awesome answers and replies. Thanks fellas.

Meltdown z-14 by VPX doesnt look too shabby to me

E/C + Tight + 400mg oral 7 OXO-DHEA (transdermal is even mo' better)

What do yo guys think of Stacker 2 ef? Im debating on whether or not to purchase vasopro to help me cut down to 16% from 25 in the next month.