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Posted: Aug 10 2005, 08:09 PM
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If ever we needed biotechnology to drive the tech stock market and prepare us for substantial issues we face, the time is now.

Think on this.

The petrochemical stocks used to in the manufacture of everything about you, every_single_thing_you_touch - are dwindling.

There will come a time when decisions must be faced. Do we use the remaining high grade (that means low sulfur, nitrogen, and heavy metals) crude oil for fuels or do we keep it for cracking and production of base chemicals for synthesis of the many synthetic compounds we rely on for production and packaging of our consumer goods, food, shelter, clothing, drugs, supplements, the whole gamut of goods we may purchase?

If we choose not to use for fuels, what will be use?

And what source stock will we use when oil is too difficult to inexpensively extract and crack for petrochemical stocks?

And now, the answer:

Where does petroleum crude come from? It comes from the process called eutrophication in lakes, that causes tiny organisms to flocculate and fall by gravity, in a nutrient rich medium, over thousands of years, to fill in the lake to a bog. The bog attracts plants, and these and the accumulated flocs, being dense mats called peat. And this peat undergoes bioconversion and eventually, densifies and undergoes additional reactions to become large macromolecular aggregates of plant and algae derived hydrocarbons.

Our goal must be to consider this process, and find a derivative process for extracting the base materials, avoiding the need for massive molecular dissestion that is cracking of crude, and use bacterial processes to build the petrochemical type stocks needed, not for fuels, but for the chemical resources we have become so reliant on in these past hundred years.

This is the future of biotechnology and biosynthetic chemical stocks.

Welcome to my world.

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Posted: Aug 10 2005, 08:09 PM
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QUOTE (willpiazza31 @ Aug 10 2005, 03:36 PM)
What a bunch of bullshit. Pisses me off. Someone's getting rich.

Yeah, people in the oil business are doing pretty good right now. But, let's not forget when oil was ~$12 per bbl. back in the 1990's. People in the oil business then were barely making enough to get by (well, the small companies, anyway).

The oil business is feast or famine, boom or bust... it just happens to be boomin' right now cool.gif

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Posted: Aug 10 2005, 08:27 PM
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what is the avg price in the states? here in canada today it was 94.5 cents per litre...i think thats about $3.6 to $4.0 canadian we pay per gallon....we have to pay even more than the us...now thats bs

"If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got"
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Posted: Aug 10 2005, 09:15 PM
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QUOTE (trouble @ Aug 10 2005, 08:09 PM)
Welcome to my world.

Are you employed in a field related to this set of industries (oil, energy, economist at large, etc) or in solving this problem?

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Posted: Aug 10 2005, 09:32 PM
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QUOTE (Speakle @ Aug 10 2005, 08:07 PM)
I drive a v-8 and will be pulling a 2500-3000lb trailer daily in the future so F the fuel tax credit. I have to drive and have to do it a lot. I am spending 80-90 bucks a damn week now.

The following might sound harsh, but, that's the nature of economics and the natural world at large.

I don't know what your job is, or why you need to pull that trailer, but you are going to need to either charge more for your services (which may price your service out of existance or reduce demand such that you can't find sufficient work), find another job, or face/deal with reduced income. The designers of fuel taxes/credits know very well that many people will be negatively affected, but that is almost the point.

Your actions do not only affect yourself, but many others... the concept of negative externalities (external effects from your internal economic decisions) is something that many people have never thought about. If someone can make a net $30,000 (including transportation costs, time costs, etc) driving 45 minutes to work, and only a net $29,000 driving 5 minutes to work, most people would choose the $30k job. However, they do not consider the negative effect this decision has upon the rest of the world. The gasoline usage in driving the extra 40 minutes every day drives up the price of gas for everybody else... nowhere in your decision was this "social cost" accounted for. Taxes are designed to exactly correct this, or "internalize" the externalities. You're basically taxed so that you make the "correct" social decision that isn't really apparent without a tax.

A tax credit for more fuel efficient vehicles is necessary to correct all the waste present in fuel consumption... do you really need a 6 mpg SUV to drive around the suburbs, or for the benefit of society should you be using a 40mpg sedan? You still have the 'right' to buy a SUV with taxes enacted, it will just cost you a lot more, and in aggregate fewer SUVs will be purchased.

Basically, your action (again I don't know for what you are hauling this trailer) uses a lot of gasoline, and taxes should be enacted to convince you to choose other professions/actions which have a lesser cost to society.

I hope that makes sense. I would like to say in conclusion, though, that this is idealism and that economists acknowledge that many people are hurt (i.e. what if you, speakle, can't afford to take a hit for the larger benefit of everybody else? Or, if your job was priced out of existance, who pays for job-retraining and your expenses in the interim), and there are many other factors at play. This was just a basic explanation intended to explain why consumption taxes are necessary and are a useful economic tool if implented correctly.

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Posted: Aug 11 2005, 11:30 AM
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RC, I'm on the microbial/ag-biotech solution side.

This is where the US is gonna rock in the future.


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Posted: Aug 11 2005, 02:00 PM
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QUOTE (trouble @ Aug 10 2005, 08:09 PM)
The petrochemical stocks used to in the manufacture of everything about you, every_single_thing_you_touch - are dwindling.

I wonder how much time we have before petrochemical stocks (natural resources) will run low enough to cause some major drama?

Who supplies these chemicals? (world) Shit.. China

Trouble I am sure you have some idea.

Btw- its to early in the morning for me.... please stop with the damn brain orgasims... mmmkay??

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Posted: Aug 11 2005, 04:37 PM
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Not too far off the mark, James.

The US is still the world's largest producer of petrochemical stocks, but other countries are narrowing the gap. China is one of the more aggressive national producers that are vying for a chunk of the global demand for industrial chemicals.

Here's an idea of what China's industrial sector is producing:

C. Industry –the Manufacturing and Mining Sector
Manufacturing, mining, and construction constitute China’s industrial sector. In the 1980s industrial production increased by an average annual rate of 11.1 percent, and in the period from 1990 to 1996 it grew by an annual rate of 17.3 percent, the fastest pace in the world. China’s manufactures are diverse and include such complex products as airplanes, ships, automobiles, satellites, and modern industrial equipment. However, many production facilities are outmoded and inefficient, and many state-owned enterprises operate at a loss.

Since the 1980s enterprise managers have received increasing decision-making powers. The government has introduced new forms of management, such as leasing, shareholding, and contracting out of state-owned enterprises. It has allowed private ownership to coexist with state and collective ownership, and for many state-owned enterprises to be leased, contracted out, merged, or sold. In an effort to modernize industry, China has sent large numbers of scholars, factory managers, and technicians abroad to acquire advanced management and technical skills. Foreign technology has also been imported in the form of entire factories.

In manufacturing the Chinese government regards the iron and steel industry as the foundation for further industrial developmen. In 1996 China produced 101 million metric tons of steel, ranking first in the world. The country manufactures a great variety of steel products, including tungsten steels, stainless steels, heavy steel plates, and seamless pipes.

In addition to iron and steel, China’s heavy industries include shipbuilding and the manufacture of locomotives, tractors, mining machinery, power-generating equipment, petroleum drilling and refining machinery, and petrochemicals.

Petrochemical plants are found in most provinces and autonomous regions, and products include synthetic fibers, plastics, and pharmaceuticals.

The Chinese textile industry is the largest in the world. It includes the weaving of cotton, wool, linen, silk, and chemical fibers; cloth printing and dyeing; and knitting and clothing manufacture. Since the beginning of the reforms, cotton production has increased dramatically to supply a growing textile industry.

Other important manufactures produced in China include cement, paper and paperboard, television sets, bicycles, sewing machines, washing machines, refrigerators, and motor vehicles.

In mining China has many mineral resources, including large deposits of some industrially important minerals. In 1999 China produced 1.01 billion metric tons of coal, the largest production in the world. Coal is China’s leading fuel for industrial and home use. Most of the coal produced is for the domestic market.

Rapid development of the petroleum industry since the 1950s has made China one of the world’s major oil producers. China became self-sufficient in gasoline products in 1963, although the per capita consumption level was very low; by 1973 the country was able to export both crude oil and refined petroleum products. Major oil fields include Daqing in Heilongjiang, Shengli in Shandong, and Liaohe in Liaoning. The nation’s largest petroleum reserves are found in the Tarim Pendi, an arid basin in Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region.

Source: http://christian-living.jesuswork.org/t13-...y-on-china.html <you get your info sources where you can..>

I posted some facts on world crude oil resources and availability in the future on this forum recently (I think it might have been one of X's provacative threads).

The peak in world production is projected to occur in the next 10-15 yrs. Thereafter, recovery will become progressively more expensive as lower yield and heavily contaminated crude oil sources (oil shales and sands, high S crudes and light crudes) are harvested.

We face a critial shortage of oil for all uses, in the next 50 years.

Thereafter, new materials for the production of hydrocarbon synthetic chemicals must supply demand for manmade materials.

<not MY fault if you have screwy artist hours, James> laugh.gif

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Posted: Aug 11 2005, 05:00 PM
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now lets do some pretty simple math... you guys are paying between 2.20 and 2.80 per GALLON of gas... here in Ontario Canada... we are paying 91-1.06 per LITER.... now lets change that into gallons 4.3 liters per gallon... so we are paying about 4$ a GALLON.... now lets do the exchange rate... we are paying about 3.00-3.60$ PER gallon.... that is american.... so really.... I would love to pay 2.20... or even 2.80.... and really does it make that much of a difference when you fill up... I see a difference between this time last year and this year of about 4-6$ on a full tank... so really it does not bother me... what does bother me is that the price of everyday items will go up because it cost more to transport them


just my .02 cents
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Posted: Aug 11 2005, 06:05 PM
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Posted: Aug 11 2005, 06:09 PM
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QUOTE (boulanger @ Aug 11 2005, 05:00 PM)
now lets do some pretty simple math... you guys are paying between 2.20 and 2.80 per GALLON of gas... here in Ontario Canada... we are paying 91-1.06 per LITER.... now lets change that into gallons 4.3 liters per gallon... so we are paying about 4$ a GALLON.... now lets do the exchange rate... we are paying about 3.00-3.60$ PER gallon.... that is american.... so really.... I would love to pay 2.20... or even 2.80.... and really does it make that much of a difference when you fill up... I see a difference between this time last year and this year of about 4-6$ on a full tank... so really it does not bother me... what does bother me is that the price of everyday items will go up because it cost more to transport them


just my .02 cents

thats not too accurate
i live outside of Toronto, and price is consistantly in the .80's
once a week if that, it hits 90's... 1.06?
never even heard of that price

indian reserve = .65 - .70 cents a litre, and most of the stations dont ask for id if u dont look native, if u live near hamilton head towards Caledonia

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Posted: Aug 11 2005, 06:21 PM
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QUOTE (boulanger @ Aug 11 2005, 05:00 PM)
now lets do some pretty simple math... you guys are paying between 2.20 and 2.80 per GALLON of gas... here in Ontario Canada... we are paying 91-1.06 per LITER.... now lets change that into gallons 4.3 liters per gallon... so we are paying about 4$ a GALLON.... now lets do the exchange rate... we are paying about 3.00-3.60$ PER gallon.... that is american.... so really.... I would love to pay 2.20... or even 2.80.... and really does it make that much of a difference when you fill up... I see a difference between this time last year and this year of about 4-6$ on a full tank... so really it does not bother me... what does bother me is that the price of everyday items will go up because it cost more to transport them


just my .02 cents

we have less economic responsibility in our gas taxes than you guys and Europe, plus, owning >50% of the world's oil by proxy has its benefits.

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Posted: Aug 11 2005, 06:28 PM
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QUOTE (bdkexcell @ Aug 11 2005, 06:09 PM)
QUOTE (boulanger @ Aug 11 2005, 05:00 PM)
now lets do some pretty simple math... you guys are paying between 2.20 and 2.80 per GALLON of gas... here in Ontario Canada... we are paying 91-1.06 per LITER.... now lets change that into gallons 4.3 liters per gallon... so we are paying about 4$ a GALLON.... now lets do the exchange rate... we are paying about 3.00-3.60$ PER gallon.... that is american.... so really.... I would love to pay 2.20... or even 2.80.... and really does it make that much of a difference when you fill up... I see a difference between this time last year and this year of about 4-6$ on a full tank... so really it does not bother me... what does bother me is that the price of everyday items will go up because it cost more to transport them


just my .02 cents

thats not too accurate
i live outside of Toronto, and price is consistantly in the .80's
once a week if that, it hits 90's... 1.06?
never even heard of that price

indian reserve = .65 - .70 cents a litre, and most of the stations dont ask for id if u dont look native, if u live near hamilton head towards Caledonia

well check www.ontariogasprices.com or where I live... www.ottawagasprices.com

and even in the 80's the US still pays ALOT less per gallon then we do
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Posted: Aug 11 2005, 06:48 PM
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QUOTE (boulanger @ Aug 11 2005, 06:28 PM)
QUOTE (bdkexcell @ Aug 11 2005, 06:09 PM)
QUOTE (boulanger @ Aug 11 2005, 05:00 PM)
now lets do some pretty simple math... you guys are paying between 2.20 and 2.80 per GALLON of gas... here in Ontario Canada... we are paying 91-1.06 per LITER.... now lets change that into gallons 4.3 liters per gallon... so we are paying about 4$ a GALLON.... now lets do the exchange rate... we are paying about 3.00-3.60$ PER gallon.... that is american.... so really.... I would love to pay 2.20... or even 2.80.... and really does it make that much of a difference when you fill up... I see a difference between this time last year and this year of about 4-6$ on a full tank... so really it does not bother me... what does bother me is that the price of everyday items will go up because it cost more to transport them


just my .02 cents

thats not too accurate
i live outside of Toronto, and price is consistantly in the .80's
once a week if that, it hits 90's... 1.06?
never even heard of that price

indian reserve = .65 - .70 cents a litre, and most of the stations dont ask for id if u dont look native, if u live near hamilton head towards Caledonia

well check www.ontariogasprices.com or where I live... www.ottawagasprices.com

and even in the 80's the US still pays ALOT less per gallon then we do

right, but you have government subsidized mass transit on a much larger scale than us to make up for that. Also, you are not used to the same social activities (I don't think nearly as many europeans/canadians just drive around aimlessly with their friends, but rather are used to less costly activities)... that's not a complete excuse, but we are in times of transition, and changing one's ways is always painful. This is why there are complaints... I hope you can understand that. You do retain the right to make fun of us though, as canada was prudent enough to make gas the price it should have been for us decades ago.

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Posted: Aug 11 2005, 06:50 PM
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I do live in Canada... and I drive around alot just for the fun of it...
doesnt really matter what the price of gas is... im still gonna drive around... still go boating... and still use my quad...

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Posted: Aug 11 2005, 07:51 PM
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Gettin' ~$60 / bbl.... GO BABY GO!

Yes, I work for an oil exploration/production company (family). Not doing too bad at the moment!

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Posted: Aug 11 2005, 07:55 PM
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QUOTE (boulanger @ Aug 11 2005, 06:50 PM)
I do live in Canada... and I drive around alot just for the fun of it...
doesnt really matter what the price of gas is... im still gonna drive around... still go boating... and still use my quad...

in aggregate, the price matters, and less people will do less driving.

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Posted: Aug 11 2005, 07:56 PM
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QUOTE (RepubCarrier @ Aug 11 2005, 07:55 PM)
QUOTE (boulanger @ Aug 11 2005, 06:50 PM)
I do live in Canada... and I drive around alot just for the fun of it...
doesnt really matter what the price of gas is... im still gonna drive around... still go boating... and still use my quad...

in aggregate, the price matters, and less people will do less driving.

Yup, there will be certain individuals who still go about business as usual, but, as a whole, people will change.

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Posted: Aug 11 2005, 08:36 PM
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QUOTE (trouble @ Aug 11 2005, 04:37 PM)
and the manufacture of locomotives

<not MY fault if you have screwy artist hours, James> laugh.gif

Ah yes... locomotives. travel by train. Soon to be my favorite mode of trasportation.

Btw- its not my art keeping me up all night lately wink.gif

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Posted: Aug 11 2005, 08:43 PM
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QUOTE (James70262 @ Aug 11 2005, 08:36 PM)
QUOTE (trouble @ Aug 11 2005, 04:37 PM)
and the manufacture of locomotives

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