|
|
 |
Cyclic Ketogenic diet, Having problems acheiving ketosis |  |
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
Member

Group: Advanced Members
Posts: 155
Member No.: 7651
Joined: 6-September 03

|   |  |
 |
 |
 I have tried Bodyopus in mid June. First week was pretty cool. I went into ketosis on Tuesday evening (starting no carb on Sunday pm). Kept the keto strips light purple into Friday when I came out of ketosis to complete my depletion work out. Carbed up like Duchaine said every 2 hours. (I was on duty that night so it made it easier to eat). Meanwhile, I was waiting for a glucometer I bought on Ebay. It came during the second cycle, unfortunately. My waistline looked trimmer, 37" (down 1") mid-navel, body weight dropped from 194 to 190 mainly due to glucose depletion which carries water. I was looking forward to 2 more weeks of Bodyopus because it was easy and I am very insulin sensitive and tolerate low blood glucose well. Here's the problem. Week 2- eating and workout log, no carbs day 1 and 2 worked out entire body in 2 days. Day 3 light carbs (milk in my coffee), glucose disposal agents as recommended by Bodyopus during the entire diet...ALA, Vanadyl, chromium, MCT oil, flax oil, etc. Glucometer arrived- 86 blood glucose level  WTF. Wednesday night, no ketones on strip yet. Thursday is day 4-morning cardio, jumped rope for 15 minutes (intense) continued very low carb <12 gms/day, no ketones, blood glucose levels 90. Now I'm pissed off. 96 hours of no/low carbs and I can't even get down to a very low normal aside from trying for ketosis <50. So I decided to stop the diet before I start to lose muscle and retry in 3-4 weeks. When in ketosis <50, the body will NOT use amino acids or muscle glycogen for fuel. I felt like I hit a wall after 1 week. I'm looking for suggestions here please. I used the right ratios of fat/ protein. I kept the maintenance calories the same as week 1 and right where they should be. The workouts and supplements were good as well. Any suggestions? And please don't waste your time telling me to look into illegal substances. I am a public servant and love my job and method of providing for my family. I don't need to be in the unemployment line or worse...jail. I am almost 47, in very good physical shape, bodyfat <12%, and looking to trim down some midsection fat. I am a gym rat that can no longer lift low reps due to some problems with my shoulder, so I just maintain what I have. I was successful in the past with the Isocaloric diet, but it can be a little muscle wasting. Bodyopus is the best thing going and easiest in terms of sacrificing foods I like. I just need a suggestion to off-load liver glycogen and get into ketosis on schedule. Thanks in advance
Make the most of each day. Yesterday is gone, tomorrow may not come...Live for today! In memory of my best friend and lifting partner, Jimmy G.
|
 |
|
|
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
Member

Group: Advanced Members
Posts: 155
Member No.: 7651
Joined: 6-September 03

|   |  |
 |
 |
 I appreciate the feedback guys, but I have to disagree with the "fat is stored carbohydrate theory". Once glucose is in abundance and the liver and muscles can no longer accept anymore (glycogen), the excess glucose stores as fat via conversion to triglycerides from the liver. It releases as triglycerides and converted to ketones by the liver. Ketones will not show up as glucose on a glucometer. The previous post regarding workouts is normally my usual scheme (close enough) but does not comply with Bodyopus. If you read Duchaines book, the workouts are designed to hit all muscles within the first two carb depletion days. Like I said, week 1 was great. I hit ketosis late into day 2 and early day 3. Days 6 and 7 were high carb supercompansation days. I even stayed below what Duchaine wanted me to consume. The second week was a bust. Checked keto strips often-negative all day and night. Protein converts to glucose at about 58%, dietary fat converts at about 10% which is why the diet recommends fat to protein at 3:2 ratio. My intake is about 1300 fat calories, 700 protein calories and less than 40 carb calories. This was about the same as week 1. Weight loss in week one was about 4 pounds with the idea that some water weight has been lost due to the reduction in blood glucose which carries water in higher levels than when in ketosis. The reason I stopped the diet is because after more than 4 days and not hitting ketosis, I may have started to lose muscle glycogen. I can post this about my body-current weight 192 lbs, approx body fat 10%. Mid navel 37". 5'10" tall and 13 years weightlifting. I'll be 47 next month. Insulin sensitivity is very good, I tolerate low blood glucose well. Very good knowlege of weighlifting and nutrition. Firefighter and EMT with good grasp of glucose/insulin and how it affects the body. I just can't figure out where the glucose is coming from since the liver holds about 200 grams and nutritionally, I am taking in less than maintenance calories. I could understand it if the keto strips indicated a negative, that could mean that my body has no extra ketones to be measured which is common in ketogenic diets. But the glucometer readings don't lie, especially with the negative keto strips as a confirmation. I just think I'm missing something.
Make the most of each day. Yesterday is gone, tomorrow may not come...Live for today! In memory of my best friend and lifting partner, Jimmy G.
|
 |
|
|
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
Guru

Group: Advanced Members
Posts: 2576
Member No.: 82406
Joined: 31-July 05

|   |  |
 |
 |
 | QUOTE (Lorken @ Jun 30 2008, 09:01 AM) | | QUOTE (tree33 @ Jun 29 2008, 01:35 PM) | | ok, I think what is happening is, since all fat is, is stored carbohydrates, your body was releasing a bunch of fat ie "glycogen" into the blood stream that is why your glycogen reading was so high and auctually 86 or 90 isn't high. and how long after your eating are you checking it anyways? Sounds to me like it is working like it is suppose to. If your not eating carbs and your glyogen levels are staying between 75-90 it is working that just means your body is releasing a ton fat. |
That's not a theory, that's an obvious misunderstanding. Fat = FAT. |
Exactly, fat = stored carbohydrates.
HANDLEBARSI believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs. —Thomas Jefferson, 1802
|
 |
|
|
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
Member

Group: Advanced Members
Posts: 155
Member No.: 7651
Joined: 6-September 03

|   |  |
 |
 |
 | QUOTE (SargeS @ Jun 30 2008, 12:07 AM) | Like I said, week 1 was great. I hit ketosis late into day 2 and early day 3. Days 6 and 7 were high carb supercompansation days. I even stayed below what Duchaine wanted me to consume. The second week was a bust. Checked keto strips often-negative all day and night. Protein converts to glucose at about 58%, dietary fat converts at about 10% which is why the diet recommends fat to protein at 3:2 ratio. My intake is about 1300 fat calories, 700 protein calories and less than 40 carb calories. This was about the same as week 1. |
Intake posted above, same as week one with little variation. Checked glucometer 2-3 hours after small high fat meal and the addition of glucose disposal agents like ALA, vanadyl, and CP. I even thought about using Glucophage, but after researching the method of how it helps type 2 diabetics, I realize it is not a glucose disposal agent but rather it blocks the signal to the liver to slow down the release of glycogen. Keto strips never turned from tan, checked often. It was very frustrating to actually have a higher Blood glucose level than the day before, even with morning cardio. I understand gluconeogenesis, that's why the diet is very high fat. It works because of the low conversion to glucose...10%. I'm also well versed in diabetes type 1 and 2 and how insulin works to store glucose, and glucagon to release triglycerides to be used as ketones for fuel. I'm going to wait another couple of weeks and try again. Part of the problem, I understand, is due to my very high insulin sensitivity. Imagine, complaining about something positive. My body tries to block the "starvation" signal it thinks it's getting. In reality, it's getting fuel, just not the high octane...glucose. I promise to post updates when applicable to maybe help others here. I'm grateful to anyone who offers suggestions, that's what this board is about. I usually don't post questions unless I am completely out of ideas (such as this). Maybe I can hire a psychic to call Duchaine up from the dead.
Make the most of each day. Yesterday is gone, tomorrow may not come...Live for today! In memory of my best friend and lifting partner, Jimmy G.
|
 |
|
|
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
Member

Group: Advanced Members
Posts: 155
Member No.: 7651
Joined: 6-September 03

|   |  |
 |
 |
 | QUOTE (vanthehentai @ Jun 30 2008, 12:56 PM) |
And I thought I knew what I was doing in terms of dieting. Thanks for making me feel like an underachieving, misinformed shlub.
Anyhow, maybe you're taking this a bit too far? Why not just give it a few more weeks and let the mirror and the scale be the judge of whether or not it's working. And also how long did you wait since your last meal before taking your glucose levels? I was under the impression that even though proteins have a lower glycemic index than foods that are rich in carbohydrates, they still have an impact on it and therefore could be causing your blood glucose levels to fluctuate. |
This diet is very strict. Ketosis has to be acheived in 2-3 days. Food intake of high fat and moderate protein will not affect blood glucose levels after you hit ketosis which is <50 BGL, because the brain will shift to using ketones and NOT glucose. This sounds hard to believe, but it isn't. This holds true as long as carbs are less than 3% of total maintenance intake. It's sort of like pulling the string of a compound bow, you pull harder and harder until you get past the breaking point...then it gets real easy and stays that way even if you let up slightly (can't think of any other analogy). In ketosis, the body starts to cruise a little and accepts the food without the conversion to glucose due in part to insulin/glucagon shifting and the release of triglycerides. The body will NOT steal muscle glycogen nor amino acids for survival feeding, ketones are fine. This is the reason I stopped for now. Without acheiving ketosis on schedule, not only am I eating unhealthy, but sooner or later the body will take muscle glycogen. It hasn't reached that breaking point to shift toward ketones. Basically, time to recharge the liver with glucose. I've been eating back to normal for a week now. Enjoying an occasional slice of pizza and some ice cream.
Make the most of each day. Yesterday is gone, tomorrow may not come...Live for today! In memory of my best friend and lifting partner, Jimmy G.
|
 |
|
|
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
Don't agree with me, I already hate you!

Group: Advanced Members
Posts: 386
Member No.: 59537
Joined: 17-January 05

|   |  |
 |
 |
 What is your workout? If you aren't burning enough cals you won't hit ketosis. Are you getting enough cardio in?
"The only easy day, was yesterday!" "Honor, Courage, Commitment" "Non Sibi Sed Patiae!" "Force Protection On the Move" "Anywhere, Anytime, Any Task...Nothing but Excellence!" "peace through strength" "Don't tread on Me" "I've not yet begun to fight" "Potius Mori Quam Foedar" "anytime, anywhere, always ready, always there!" "In God we trust, all others we monitor" "Lead, Follow, Or get the fuck out of the way!"
|
 |
|
|
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
No juice

Group: Advanced Members
Posts: 639
Member No.: 209453
Joined: 31-October 07

|   |  |
 |
 |
 I'm pretty sure carbohydrates are the only macronutrient that ISN'T required by your body. You can get fat without ANY carbohydrates. It might be hard, but if you pack yourself full of lard all day long, you'd get fat. No carbohydrates necessary. Now, stored fat can be the RESULT of eating excess carbohydrates, but FAT is FAT. You don't have a bunch of flour or sugar stored underneath your skin. Unless your name is Pillsbury Dough Boy.
CUTFEST 2009 JOURNALJudge a mân not by where he was or where he is, but by how far he has come, and in what direction he is headed.
You are not truly famous until someone quotes you. -Lorken
|
 |
|
|
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
Member

Group: Advanced Members
Posts: 155
Member No.: 7651
Joined: 6-September 03

|   |  |
 |
 |
 Like I said, I repeated everything almost identical to week 1 which went like clockwork. Week 2, day 3 added < 12 grams carbs throughout the day= 1 tablespoon milk in my 4 cups coffee/day. A stalk of celery with cream cheese. This is as per Duchaines Bodyopus book. I don't even drink diet drinks because first, I don't like them, but also citric acid can elevate BGL. Workouts per the book- upper body on Monday, lower body on Tuesday. Friday, full body depletion day then carb up every 2 hours. Duchaine doesn't recommend alot of cardio after the Tuesday workout. I did 15 minutes of intense jump rope on day 3 morning. The jump rope is far superior to any other kind of cardio I've ever done including running 7-8 minute mile. I'm pretty active being a firefighter and a gym rat. I'm in good shape for an old fart, but I think by body is too effiecient, liver glycogen is releasing very slowly. My body may have recognized the "starvation" signals after week 1. After all, my daily caloric intake was less than 2100 cals mostly from dietary fat. My carb up calories were through the roof, but this is as per the book. example of 1 day eating (not exact quantities, but protein usually 600-700 cal, fat is 1200-1300 cal) awaken- 3 bacon, 2 eggs, coffee, water, supplements (mostly glucose disposal agents) flax oil. 2-3 hours later- MCT oil, and maybe a small piece of leftover meat from night before. Seltzer water (no carbs) 2-3 hours later- can of tuna, lots of mayo. Seltzer water (no carbs) 1 hour later- fiber drink or caps - no carbs other than fiber (not really carbs) 2-3 hours later- dinner, meat, pork or fish. MCT oil. coffee. 2-3 hours later- snack, pork rinds or celery stalk w/cream cheese. note: no celery until after day 2 is over. flax oil, supplements and fiber caps before bed. Alot of water throughout day. Day 1 and 2 carbs are 10 calories or less. Rest of days carb intake is between 30-50 calories.
Make the most of each day. Yesterday is gone, tomorrow may not come...Live for today! In memory of my best friend and lifting partner, Jimmy G.
|
 |
|
|
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
 I'll say this much...save your fingers! The glucose meter isn't a good way of measuring blood sugar. I did the bodyopus thing. It's cool but it's dated. Look at Lyle Mcdonald's books on PSMF and the Ultimate Diet etc. Lyle Mcdonald was really a pupil of Duchaine's work and carried on where Duchaine left off. I myself read Body Opus from cover to cover...it's a great book, Duchaine was an awesome writer. I started the diet and was taking blood sugar measurements using the glucose meter. I don't remember what my readings were but they never got down low like Duchaine said they would. I went to Lyle Mcdonald's site and asked around and they said that your blood sugar levels WILL NOT get that low. Also, the glucose meter is accurate enough for diabetics but not accurate enough for what Duchaine had intended. In contrast, a good friend of mine who is also a Duchaine-Disciple claimed to get his blood sugar levels down low and was using a glucose meter. I don't know what to believe. I was really interested in running metformin to assist in dropping the blood sugar down but I never could get my hands on any. I did read that GOAT's RUE is a naturally occuring version of metformin and surprisingly, there are no supplement companies that are producing supplements with Goat's Rue. Additionally Green Tea is said to drop your blood sugar levels down. I don't think this diet is really great unless you're already down to a fairly low body fat percentage. Duchaine says this as does Mcdonald. I also do not think this diet works really well unless you've got the drugs to go with it. Anything is possible though. check out http://www.lylemcdonald.com or I think his site is http://www.bodyrecomposition.net or .com

|
 |
|
|
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
Member

Group: Advanced Members
Posts: 155
Member No.: 7651
Joined: 6-September 03

|   |  |
 |
 |
 | QUOTE (DR X @ Jul 10 2008, 06:35 PM) | Do you vary your calories ED or are they the same.
You carb up only one day, right? |
I'm at work right now, so I can't check my journal. I do remember eating about 2000-2200 calories on day 1 and 2, carbs almost 0 (< 4 gms). Day 3 carbs <12 gms. calories about the same. Carb up begins on day 5 evening right after a slight blood glucose increase to take you above the ketosis threshold then the full body depletion workout to use up any remaining available muscle glycogen. You then overload the body with 2 hour feedings of very high carb/ protein liquid meals. Kind of like a post-workout meal feeding frenzy. Day 6, and part of day 7 is also high carb, but regular food. Don't get me wrong, I did great on the week of the diet. Like I said everything went like clockwork, good results as well. Today, (Sunday 7/13) at 6 pm I am trying it again. I will post stats every few days.
Make the most of each day. Yesterday is gone, tomorrow may not come...Live for today! In memory of my best friend and lifting partner, Jimmy G.
|
 |
|
|
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
Member

Group: Advanced Members
Posts: 155
Member No.: 7651
Joined: 6-September 03

|   |  |
 |
 |
 | QUOTE (unstable @ Jul 10 2008, 09:30 PM) | I'll say this much...save your fingers! The glucose meter isn't a good way of measuring blood sugar.
In contrast, a good friend of mine who is also a Duchaine-Disciple claimed to get his blood sugar levels down low and was using a glucose meter. I don't know what to believe. |
I have checked McDonalds pages. Here is a quote from his log. "Dan discusses cool toys like Ketostix and glucometers and tells us how to use them to chart progress. Pasquale mentions neither. However, before you run out to your pharmacy, let me tell you, even in deep ketosis, my glucometer has never shown me below about 70 blood glucose. And, you almost can't not be in ketosis after 3 days without carbs assuming you train even half-heartedly so the Ketostix are just something cool to piss on." As a Firefighter/EMT, I have a hard time believing that a glucometer at 70 is showing a grossly inaccurate reading unless your glucometer is not calibrated correctly. McDonald states that it is almost impossible to not be in ketosis after 3 days without carbs. I DISAGREE, you have to consider several factors: Protein will convert to glucose at about 58% total conversion. 1000 protein calories can convert to 600 glucose calories and store as liver glycogen or stay bloodborne. Also, prior to ketosis, muscle glycogen can release and be utilized as blood glucose. This is why you have to get into ketosis as quickly as possible so that muscle stores are not given up. Even if his theory is correct, it certainly isn't the same for everyone. The other factor is this, I used some ketosticks as a backup. Neither the ketostick nor the glucometer gave any indication of ketosis. One can argue that excess ketones are not available for measurement, but they were on week one. Overall, I felt different in week 2 than in week one. So I'm using that as an indicator as well. Another thing, like I stated earlier. I am extremely insulin sensitive. This is only a bad thing if your shooting for severe hypoglycemia (ketogenic diet). This is probably working against me as well. I'm starting Bodyopus again tonight with all the same supps. I will post my progress. This time I will be doing some additional cardio on day 2 and 3 to drain available glycogen. I will keep you informed.
Make the most of each day. Yesterday is gone, tomorrow may not come...Live for today! In memory of my best friend and lifting partner, Jimmy G.
|
 |
|
|
|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
Member

Group: Advanced Members
Posts: 155
Member No.: 7651
Joined: 6-September 03

|   |  |
 |
 |
 | QUOTE (unstable @ Jul 10 2008, 09:30 PM) |
I was really interested in running metformin to assist in dropping the blood sugar down but I never could get my hands on any. I did read that GOAT's RUE is a naturally occuring version of metformin and surprisingly, there are no supplement companies that are producing supplements with Goat's Rue. Additionally Green Tea is said to drop your blood sugar levels down.
I don't think this diet is really great unless you're already down to a fairly low body fat percentage. Duchaine says this as does Mcdonald. I also do not think this diet works really well unless you've got the drugs to go with it. Anything is possible though.
check out http://www.lylemcdonald.com or I think his site is http://www.bodyrecomposition.net or .com |
I did have good results for 1 week of BodyOpus, body fat is right around 10% maybe just under. I base this on previous measurements (3-4 years ago) and that my lean mass was about 175 lbs. at the time. I figure I had to add at least a couple of pounds of muscle since then. As far as drugs go...you can do well without them. I did the Isocaloric diet in 97 for the EAS competition in Muscle Media. I was at 5% BF, but it is hard to maintain lean mass while eating this way. Furthermore, I reiterate, I am a public servant and like my job. Metformin (Glucophage) does not cause Hypoglycemia. It also works by signaling the liver to produce less glucose, this does not mean that blood glucose levels will drop. Only that it trys to prevent "high glucose" while fasting (between meals). Type 2 diabetics are very insulin resistant. Glucophage tells the liver what it can't sense on its own, that glucose production is not needed. I did find this info- http:// health.howstuffworks.com/how-to-manage-your-diabetes-care4.htm Start reading at "Biguanides". It explains the action of Glucoplage fairly well. I certainly appreciate all the input. As usual, I try to contribute back as much as possible. I don't spend as much time on this site as previously because of work/family. I am however, a good customer to the store. I check back here a few times/week. Thanks again. Keep looking here for updates to MY BodyOpus.
Make the most of each day. Yesterday is gone, tomorrow may not come...Live for today! In memory of my best friend and lifting partner, Jimmy G.
|
 |
|
|
|
|