Ephedra for use in weight-loss products was banned a while ago. but ephedra HCL is legal now. Since I am a powerlifter who is only recently starting to try to be lean, I never used or cared much about ephedra news.... but now that has changed.

is ephedra HCL basically the same thing as the old ephedra? could someone spell this out for me (dosage, side effects, cost, effectiveness)

There's plenty of different forms of ephedra. IMO the HCL is the best. Go with the Vasopro. Only $7/bottle for 60 tabs. Side effects: you'll probably feel jittery the first few days, but that will pass. Most people usually stack with caffeine (1 Vasopro w/ 1 200mg caffeine) three times a day. Some recommend only going with 400mg caffeine a day though. If you run it 3x day then be careful with other sources of caffeine (coffee, pop, etc). It's an effective stack. A EC really isn't "thermogenic" to a high degree. Most of your weight loss will be due to the way it kills your appetite. Overall though it's a great and cheap stack. Bottle of Vasopro and Caffeine will only run you about $15.

Just to clarify...

Ephedrine is the part of ephedra that you "feel." Think of it like this: Men chase women (women = ephedra) because they want sex (sex = ephedrine). So you get the girl, and get the sex, but you also get all the other shit that comes along with it (i.e. them opening their mouths).

Now imagine if you could get the sex without having to deal with all the other shit that makes sex less appealing. Thatd be great, right? No nagging, no game playing, no bullshit - just have her bend over and do it Kobe style. Thats ephedrine.

There's plenty of info on this forum if you search, but typical dosage is 20mg ephedrine stacked with 100-200mg caffeine 3 times a day. Its important to assess your tolerance first, though. Start low and increase as necessary - 20mg is just a rough estimate.

This was covered just recently in the other thread;
http://forums.1fast400.com/?showtopic=3860&st=0&

Ephedrine HCL is recommended. To get the same benefit from Ephedra (extract) you must take very large amounts. Even then it depends on how the alkaloids have been standardized (at what percent?), and what range of alkaloids are in there. There's no way of knowing this by the information that comes with the package, and you are forced to risk your health unnecessarily.

Ephedrine HCL is the ingredient in VasoPro. The pure substance is cheap and easy to make, making it a more valuable purchase then brand-name thermogenics like Xenodrine.

The adverse reactions from the HCL form of Ephedrine will be in the same category as the old Ephedra, but considerably amplified. The beneficial reactions to your CNS, heart-rate and thermogenics are also increased.

Overdosing by as little as 8mg could seriously harm your well being. This is more true for a first time dosage.

I was recommended to take 20-25mg a day and no more. For females this is especially important since they generally have less body mass, and less tolerance.

This should be your starting point. You'll find that some athletes are taking in excess of 125mg per day. This is because a tolerance is developed to Ephedrine- though it can be counteracted with proper cycling. It would be a good idea to do this, since a lower tolerance means less ingestion of the drug and more money saved.

For effectiveness, Ephedrine should ideally be combined with 100-200mg Caffeine after a tolerance is developed. This is because the effects on the central nervous system (including thermogenics) are increased by just short of 2x by using Caffeine. In another post I went into more details as to why.

This combination is certainly effective, but it has it's dangers. Not cycling off will seriously affect your central nervous system. The short term discomforts include exhaustion and a lowered elasticity of the lungs (you will have difficulty breathing after coming off larger doses). This is partly why in the other post I mentioned proper exercise is necessary. Ephedrine should not be taken if you don't plan on going for a run while you're on it. Your lungs need to physically develop a good habit of breathing- in full, deep breaths. You also need increased oxygen while on any CNS stimulant.

If you have questions feel free to add to the thread,

Take care,

-Lite

ps. Monolith, your post sucks, and so does your idea of females.

well, here is what I was basically doing. I used to run cross country, then decided to gain 60 lbs in a year, lol.... currently a 215 lb powerlifter. It takes very little running for me to get back into shape (for rugby & such), and that used to be the only reason I would run. I would guess my bodyfat is around 20%, higher than it used to be. dont like having mini-boobies, lol.

Ephedra improves the fat/muscle ratio, am I correct? by this I mean, using a somewhat good diet, a caloric deficit will result in more fat than muscle lost had I not been using ephedra? I am a powerlifter seeking to lower his bodyfat to around 12-14%, no lower, or I will face joint imflammation and slowed muscle mass gains in the gym (my main priority). Im sure the 20 to 14% can be done without noticable ill effects though...I do 4 fairly grueling powerlifting workouts a week, and run usually twice a week (HIIT or long distance, depending how I feel). I am a fucking nutcase and usually load up on 400-600 mg of caffiene immediately before powerlifting workouts. although this isn't as some other guys at my gym who snort coke pre-workout.

I also have a product that someone gave to me, I wouldnt have spent my money on it, the ripped-fuel that came out post-ephedra from Twinlabs. ingredients looks like caffiene and plants. I was taking these before cardio just to get rid of it because I figured I shouldnt waste it. (seperate question: I suspect the crappiness of this product, what do you guys think)

Would it be alright to take the 25 mg dose of ephedra before running, without caffiene? I don't want to gain tolerance or addiction to caffiene, and I have avoided this by using it in moderate doses in long intervals (every 2-3 days only, and no soda/coffee). Seperate question, you said to take the ephedra/caffiene three times a day. if I wanted a more moderate effect would it make sense to only use the stuff pre-workout, i.e. one dose per workout? thanks for any responses to these questions/comments.

Yeah...usually one of the doses per day is pre-workout (about 30min prior). If you're only going to take it then, you might not get a lot of benefit from the "fat loss" effects of ephedra. It will give you a good energy boost pre-workout, though. As far as building up a tolerance, the stimulant effect will go away after awhile, though the benefit of fat loss effects will remain.

As far as Twinlabs...yeah I think it's junk. I used to take Diet Fuel, and it was good stuff when it had ephedra in it. After they took it out it didn't do jack. I think most stuff like that is overpriced crap. I am considering the Lipo-6 though since it has gotten very good feedback.

ok one last dumb question. If I took 3 doses a day of ephedra, or of caffiene, or both, and ate the same thing I had been eating (forced the food down despite no appetite), would by bodyfat be reduced automatically by the properties of these drugs?

Ephedra does improve the muscle to fat ratio. Although it's popular because of its fat burning properties, far better is its ability to prevent muscle breakdown. During atrophy and very intense workouts, the body will respond by trying to use the muscle as an energy source (it puts muscle at a higher priority for burning then even fat). Ephedra prevents this, making frequent workouts possible with more noticeable gains.

This is another topic, but I would avoid calorie-counting. Using the glycemic index and your nutrient intake as a rule of thumb is far more beneficial. 1000 calories of lard is not the same as 1000 calories of pure elemental calcium.

I am genetically prone to joint problems with long distance running. I haven't had to deal with this problem since supplementing with MSM. One or two tablets (1-2g) per day is more then enough. It's very cheap and is usually sold in bulk packages. Just a little friendly advice.

The Ripped Fuel is no good.

400-600mg of Caffeine is quite a lot. I used to fly after 100mg. Are you sure you don't have a tolerance? It's different for every person, but think I would be speaking-in-tongues after a dose of Caffeine that large.

You can definitely take the Ephedra and run (no high blood pressure, right?), but the real benefit comes from taking it with Caffeine, since the cAMP generating properties of both become amplified two fold when taken in combination. Meaning, a thermogenic affect of x4. The fat burning effects will be much lower without the Caffeine. I would take them together once you feel ok with the minimum dosage.

I think it makes the most sense to take the EC stack right before a workout- and not during the day. Using that boost in energy to go for a long distance run will tremendously reduce body fat. Taking the stack and watching TV will hardly help, and may cause health problems later on. The EC stack stimulates the CNS, and during this time being sedentary is not a good idea.

The peak time of Ephedrine is between 45-60 minutes after ingestion. I time my workouts so my feet touch the treadmill 45 minutes after I take the EC. Caffeine will show its peak a little sooner at 30-45 minutes. I don't know about Caffeine but the Ephedra's half-life gives you a boost of 7 hours, assuming you don't have a tolerance developed. Once a tolerance is developed it usually drops to 4 hours time of usefulness. On my first dose I took 50mg against all advice. It took approximately 14 hours for the stimulant effects to come down.

-Lite

ps. No worries, Monolith. Just poking fun. =)

alright... haha a powerlifter counting calories? no way. I do exactly as you say, i eat 6 meals a day, all some kind of meat sandwich (lol, burger, chicken on bread, tuna on bread, egg on bread, etc), and pay careful attention to the glycemic index. unfortunately all of these meals are currently HAMBURGER because Im stuck at a college for summer school in a dorm that has a fridge and a microwave (cant really microwave too many things).

ANYWAY. I will take the ephedra HCL with caffiene 30 mins prior to cardio from now on (once i get the stuff), and this will be my only dose. I will not use any on off-days.

The caffiene, yeah im sure ive not reached tolerance... Im a fucking nutcase on this stuff, I basically go into an insane rage duriing the main movement of the day. after this.... im usually alone at this gym (summer school, noone here) I'll just make faces in the mirror and act like a kid with ADHD * 10... which leads to incredible psyching up for lifts.


NOW... would you recommend ephedra with the caffine in a POWERLIFTING workout? talking about 1 rep maxes here, you think the blood pressure increase from powerlifting's maximal strain could combine with Ephedra to be dangerous? I don't really care about marginal dangers, which is why i'm in this sport, im asking is there is a high likelihood. if you would recommend the ephedra, would you combine this with caffiene also? I promise these are my last questions.

Sorry! When you mentioned the idea of a caloric deficit I thought that meant you were calorie counting.

Protien-wise that sounds like a good diet. I find after eating any meat for 3 days strait, the smell starts to cause a mild nausea. Soy-meat and Whey are inexpensive and I take them several times daily without getting the nausea. They also don't cause hard blood deposits like animal tissue does. Just a tip, if the meat starts getting hard to force down.

For Powerlifting, Ephedrine is not as useful as exercises like cardio or endurance lifting. Ephedrine will give you an intense and lasting outburst of energy, which will let you stay at peak performance for a long time. It's an endurance supplement, for sure. It wouldn't be dangerous in Powerlifting per say, but it would be a waste of a 7-hour uptime. How long are your Powerlifting sessions?

It also may feel as though you are getting less pump, since having so much AMP in your cells makes any amount of lifting feel quite easy. The mind and muscles don't become fatigued unless you absolutely destroy them during a workout.

In terms of Powerlifting, this would definitely benifit by helping you get over a plateau. It would give you a large boost, which would in turn let you lift more then you should normally, making your muscles adapt to the new load and bringing you over the plateau. Psychologically though, I think you'll find that the workout feels like it had more benefit without the Ephedrine, since you can feel the pump both during and after your session- even though you may have lifted less sheer weight.

It's up to you completely, just make sure to cycle off.

I would couple it with Caffeine if you do use it, since the cAMP is also increased by taking the two in combination.

Keep the questions rolling, =)

-Lite

a huge difference between bodybuilders and powerlifters is that PLers do not care at all about "the pump". as a PLer, i care solely about increasing hypertrophy to put me in the best weight class for my height, as well as hypertrophying weak spots, and most importantly stimulating the CNS to adapt to heavier loads. the pump is no concern, if ephedrine will allow me to do more work more easily in a lifting session, then this is wonderful news.

I was originally asking about ephedra to help cut my bodyfat from 20% to 14-ish, just mentioned powerlifting because I wasn't willing to drop too much muscle mass, if any... you said it should increase the muscle/fat loss ratio and that's exactly what I wanted to hear. I don't really think I can keep a 6-pack, I just don't want fat hanging off my chest and belly.

You say ephedra helps "endurance", did you mean aerobic or anaerobic (strength endurance). probably both. but of course, helping my anaerobic endurance will let me do more work on accessory exercises just as creatine does (although not in the same way, obviously). this is more a "just wondering" question since you pretty much gave me practical advise on this already, just asking about the science behind it.

and yes I am FUCKING SICK of hamburgers. I have to wait till im pretty hungry before I can eat them. I just got eggs (haha im talking like they're a rare commodity) so I'll see if I can find a way to cook them. Ive resorted to soaking the bun in olive oil to change the flavor, and adding RANDOM spices to it (garlic, onion powder, pepper, etc). I drink like 1000 calories of milk a day because it's the only thing that doesnt sicken me.

My lifting is going pretty good, I'll squat over 500 pretty soon, just wanted to drop some fat.... since you asked, heres another question.... what would you recommend as a cycle for ephedra considering 2 scenarios:

1) I take 25 mg on wednesday with 200 mg caffiene, do HIIT. I take 25 mg on saturday with 200 mg caffiene, run 1-3 miles.

2) I take 25 mg pre-workout every day with 200 mg caffiene, except sunday (this includes all cardio and weight lifting sessions)

bump for lite12

The best aspect of Ephedrine is definitely it's muscle preservation. I think you'll find you can go lower then 14% bf without any loss of muscle tissue. On the other hand, going off Ephedrine while your body fat levels are low will cause your body to use muscle as a source of energy.

I wouldn't be surprised if you find more emphasis on Ephedrine increasing anaerobic performance, but it augments both for sure. I use it primarily for long distance running since the Ephedrine increases the elasticity in the lungs and allows you to really breath. Oxygen will be in no short supply, and even if it was the increase in cAMP will make it seem as though you didn't need it. Long story short, since the entire CNS is affected, all the organs organ benefit. This means everything from breathing, to bone strength, to muscle repair, etc, etc, ad infinitum. Everything will also be working in overdrive, so make sure to get those nutrients and a good nights rest.

In desperate times, I would microwave an egg on a flat plate, and taco-style wrap a mixture of tuna and salsa with it. Add pepper/Mrs.Dash/Steak seasoning, and enjoy. Hey, it's protein.

Your second option looks dangerous. Ephedrine and Caffeine (or either of the two) six times per week will not produce good results for your central nervous system.

The first option looks as though it is the best routine in the long run. I wouldn't advise taking EC any more then 3 days per week.

Be sure to update us with your progress, = )

-Lite