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prematurely bitter
Group: Advanced Members
Posts: 95
Member No.: 17629
Joined: 10-February 04
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This week I've started a cutting diet (Joel Marion's Cheater's Diet) that requires low kcals and lots of cardio. It is recommended to consume 10 calories per lb of lean mass daily and to do 2 bouts of fasted state cardio and one bout of interval cardio per 3 day period. Anyways, to ensure protection of lean mass with this volume, the recommendation is to take a moderate amount of 4-AD for an extended cycle. I ordered 2 bottles of 4derm for the cycle, but pussed out after one dosing because I was worried about sides. Later that day, I picked up a bottle of Norandrodiol Select 300 and I've been taking 900mg a day divided in 3 doses. However, some people that I've talked to have told me that 19-Nor will not be nearly as effective in cutting as 4-AD. This afternoon I took another 5 sprays of 4derm and already tonight my scalp seems itchier. Maybe this is just psychosomatic or maybe it's from hair product, but I'm still pretty worried about hair loss (not to mention gyno.) So here's my question: With the kind of extreme dieting that I've described above, what is the best possible option for protecting lean mass without increased risk of side effects?For instance, should I switch up the oral 19-Nor for some Norderm and take a low dosage of 4derm (40-80mg 2X daily,) or should I just take a moderate-high dose of Norderm (200-300mg 2X daily) as a standalone? thanks in advance for your help.
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While I do not consider the protocol Joel Marion is advocating to be ideal (I think he was on the right track @ the time, but we now know one can do better...), I would not attempt such a routine on purely 19-Nor (to be perfectly honest, I'm just not really a big fan of this PH, period), although there is also simply no way that the 19-Nor is producing MPB (re: hair loss), so it's my esteemed opinion you are 'wigging out' somewhat  . I personally think a S1+ or 1 would be ideal (in terms of PHs), but-- if taken in a high enough amount-- 4AD is strong enough to promote a positive nitrogen/leucine balance through all but the most ridiculous of diets. But seriously, if you're worried about estrogenic/progestenic sides, just use an E/C stack and either 1-AD or transdermal 1-Test (which would, I think, be ideal for your purposes if you were to use one, stand-alone androgen). If you're willing to continue with the 4AD you might want to look into some Formestane ( E-Form), because 4AD will preserve you from the vast % of androgenic effects, and E-Form will suppress estrogen so that there is no worry of gyno or excessive water retention. In other words, to answer your question succinctly, | QUOTE | | With the kind of extreme dieting that I've described above, what is the best possible option for protecting lean mass without increased risk of side effects? |
4AD with an E/C stack (and possibly E-Form if gyno is a serious worry to you). Just my .02 "So next time you [PLINK=4481]see[/PLINK] the homey and his rims spin/ just know my mind is working just like them/ the rims that is..." - S. Carter
www.mindandmuscle.net
www.avantlabs.com
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prematurely bitter
Group: Advanced Members
Posts: 95
Member No.: 17629
Joined: 10-February 04
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| QUOTE | | I would not attempt such a routine on purely 19-Nor (to be perfectly honest, I'm just not really a big fan of this PH, period) |
so would you suggest dropping the 19-Nor altogether? would this be dangerous at all after taking it for 4-5 days already, or will it be fine as long as I continue with the 4-AD?
| QUOTE | | although there is also simply no way that the 19-Nor is producing MPB (re: hair loss), so it's my esteemed opinion you are 'wigging out' somewhat |
i didn't think that the 19-Nor was causing MPB, i thought that the 4-AD might be having a negative effect. however, it's very possible that it's all in my mind. honestly, last night i had a nightmare that all but 20 hairs fell out of my head and i grew breasts. the itching that i felt was probably dried hair gel irritating my scalp.
| QUOTE | | But seriously, if you're worried about estrogenic/progestenic sides, just use an E/C stack and either 1-AD or transdermal 1-Test (which would, I think, be ideal for your purposes if you were to use one, stand-alone androgen). If you're willing to continue with the 4AD you might want to look into some Formestane (E-Form), because 4AD will preserve you from the vast % of androgenic effects, and E-Form will suppress estrogen so that there is no worry of gyno or excessive water retention. |
i am already taking a vasopro/no-doz stack (along with alcar, 7-keto, mm4, and occasionally yohimbe.) actually, the proprietor of my local supp. shop suggested 1-AD because it's supposed to be devoid of estrogenic sides, but i swear i've heard horror stories of this causing gyno within a week of usage. what are the chances that this is a valid fear? if i do switch over to 1-AD (like S1+) would it also be suggested to use the formestane? i've got 6-OXO on hand--would that suffice or should i save that for PCT? as for today, i'm going to go ahead and use the 4derm just to make sure that it was all in my head (after all, i didn't wake up bald this morning.) thanks loki.
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Patrick Bateman is my Hero
Group: Moderators
Posts: 1193
Member No.: 2834
Joined: 28-March 03
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| QUOTE (prolangtum @ Feb 24 2004, 11:47 AM) | | I agree of the 19 Nor. Most people dont like it, and I even had a friend who pinned 1 gram a week with almost zero results. If you take anything with 4-ad you may want to add the formestane, but IMO it is usually no needed, unless your runnning over 1g ed transdermally. |
yeah, I too have never been a fan of 19 NOR....in fact, the only version of the "deca" or nor like PH/PS derivitives I have taken a liking to is 4-OHN or 4-OH Deca, whatever they call it......
"Lets put the women and children to bed and go lookin' for dinner!"Joe Kane, THE PROGRAM
"Getting the pump is like cumming with woman!"Arnold, PUMPING IRON  Max32 is an imaginary character. Any information regarding AAS is for fictional purposes only. He does not use AAS and he does not know how to obtain them, nor does he condone their use.
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prematurely bitter
Group: Advanced Members
Posts: 95
Member No.: 17629
Joined: 10-February 04
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it seems the consensus is to drop the 19-Nor and continue with the 4derm. seeing as how i'm only using 400mg of 4-AD daily, hopefully i won't see any serious sides. i still have some questions though: 1. should i just drop the 19-nor now or should i finish off my supply while i'm on the 4-AD? 2. is it wise to start taking aromazap or another formasin after a couple of weeks on 4-AD, regardless of the appearance of sides? 3. my plan was to do 3 weeks on/1 off/3 weeks on/1 off and then take at least 4 weeks off. i would be using 6-OXO on off weeks and 2 weeks post-cycle. since i've been taking 19-nor for 5-6 days already, should i count that time as part of my first 3 weeks or should i start from today? here's the breakdown: Day 1: 120mg 4derm a.m./150mg oral 19-Nor Day 2: 900mg oral 19-Nor in 3 doses Day 3: 900mg oral 19-Nor in 3 doses Day 4: 900mg oral 19-Nor in 3 doses Day 5: 900mg oral 19-Nor in 3 doses/afternoon-200mg 4dermDay 6 (today): 200mg 4derm and 300 mg 19-Nor should i count today as day 1 or day 6? thanks.
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best/safest stack for cutting?, safest way to see good results
