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> Homemade topical for joint pain, opinions on my formula
Posted: Jun 4 2004, 01:51 AM
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I have developed VERY painful shoulders over that last year (unfortunately aggravated by two successful PH cycles). I am supplementing with Glucosamine Sulfate and Aleve now, which help, but I beleive something which will work transdermally at the shoulder joint itself would be more effective (as I understand the bio-availability of GS is rather low).

My idea involves using one of the commercially available DMSO topicals consisting of 70% DMSO and 30% Aloe Vera, and then adding some Glucosamine and Chondrotin (saturation not to exceed 100mg/ml. combinded). My questions are:

1) Will I smell of sulfur (breath and B.O.)? Will the addition of peppermint oil (etc) deal with it?
2) Will a 70% solution of DSMO carry 100mg/ml past the skin?? (From my understanding it will carry steamer trunks and other luggage if given the chance) rolleyes.gif .
3) Should I dissolve the Glucosamine and Chondrotin in ISO first, or will it dissolve in the DSMO if I mix sufficiently?
3) If odor is unavoidable, would I be better off mixing MSM, Glucosmine and Chondrotin into another transdermal carrier (i.e. is the MW of these compounds small enough?)
4) Should I try something like Aloe, Oleic acid, Isopropyl Palmitate and only a small amount of DSMO (like 5-10% of total volume of my carrier)?

Needless to say, my goals are not necessarily pain relief, but the overall improvement/betterment of the joint itself.

Thanks

Ronn
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Posted: Jun 4 2004, 10:09 AM
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QUOTE
1) Will I smell of sulfur (breath and B.O.)? Will the addition of peppermint oil (etc) deal with it?


It will help, but there likely will still be some odor.

QUOTE
2) Will a 70% solution of DSMO carry 100mg/ml past the skin?? (From my understanding it will carry steamer trunks and other luggage if given the chance)  .


DMSO is a badass epidermal penetrator. You'll be fine.

QUOTE
3) Should I dissolve the Glucosamine and Chondrotin in ISO first, or will it dissolve in the DSMO if I mix sufficiently?


Iso first, just to be on the safe side.

QUOTE
3) If odor is unavoidable, would I be better off mixing MSM, Glucosmine and Chondrotin into another transdermal carrier (i.e. is the MW of these compounds small enough?)


That's a good question... dry.gif . I'm not even sure if they're hydrophillic or lipophyllic, and you'd probably need a localized transport matrix in any event. I would guess the Lipoderm carrier would probably be what you'd want, but I'm not even sure if Avant sells it all on its own. I think you may just have to stick it out with the DMSO...

What is the log P of Glucosamine? are you using Acetyl-D-Glu? Glu HCl?

QUOTE
4) Should I try something like Aloe, Oleic acid, Isopropyl Palmitate and only a small amount of DSMO (like 5-10% of total volume of my carrier)?


Fucking 'eh'-- this really is not my forte, but I would imagine if you upped the DMSO quotient to ~ 20-25% (roughly a quarter) and then used mostly IP for the remainder that would probably provide a similar quality of penetration which-- if you pepperminted it-- would probably be a lot 'milder' in terms of odor/DMSO breath...

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Posted: Jun 4 2004, 04:09 PM
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Loki,

Thanks for the reply!

My question is just about at the cutting-edge of my kitchen-counter chemistry (I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer;-), so I actually don't know the Ph level or if they're hydrophilic or lipophylic. I wanted to see if my idea was even feasible before I got too carried away. I was planning on using the NOW brand Glucosamine Sulfate powder, I have not found a source for chondroitin sulfate as of yet--but according to the NOW site, it's the sulfate's version mentioned in the most promising literature.

I hear what you're saying about local delivery, and I assumed DSMO was going to give me systemic delivery no matter what. But my assumption was that the target joint would be hit with the compounds in question, AND I would get systemic delivery (as I am with my orally now) which would be beneficial for all my joints.

Now foods has a Glucosamine/MSM/Arnica Liposome Lotion which is suppose to be a local transderma...but I've never heard of this arnica lipsome lotion or its effectiveness as a transdermal.

Ronn
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Posted: Jun 4 2004, 05:59 PM
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I made a topical glucosamine / chondroitin / msm product that worked very rapidly and very effectively for all sorts of joint problems. I just went to the drug store and bought a capsuled gluco/chondro/msm product and uncapped the powder and poured it into my topical delivary base (I don't use iso or dmso but something that works better ie no bad breath with about 60-90% penetration rate). Some things of note though: it works really well on surface joints such as your elbows and knuckles and wrists but joints that are deeper such as shoulders and knees tend to take more time. Also it seems to heal the joint. My elbow was fucked to the point where I couldn't train tris and chest and shoulders was painful, after three weeks of 3-4 apps/day I was completely fine no pain and it has been that way since (about 9 months now). If you want an even more potent product switch the chondroitin with an otc anti-inflamatory nsaid like ibuprofen or ketoprofen. With a topical you don't need much active ingredient because the bioavalibilty is targeted, I ended up only maybe taking 1g of the active ingredient per week but that was sufficient so don't worry about the concentration of the product. Hopefully yours works and your shoulder will get better.
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Posted: Jun 5 2004, 06:55 AM
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QUOTE
and poured it into my topical delivary base (I don't use iso or dmso but something that works better ie no bad breath with about 60-90% penetration rate).


What is your Topical delivery base. You can PM me if you like to share it.

Thanks in advance,

Bob
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Posted: Jun 5 2004, 01:54 PM
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Yeah Big Red, if you find yourself feeling like "a drunk sorority girl" anytime soon I'd like a PM as well wink.gif

And thanks for the advice on the ibuprofen or ketoprofen, I think I might include that. IS one gram a week just the dosing for the naisd, or for the whole shebang?

Thanks

Ronn
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Posted: Jun 5 2004, 04:29 PM
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One gram is for the whole shebang, but you gotta remember that whatever the oral bioavailability is of the gluco/chondro/msm (or whatever the mix) by the time it is absorbed by your system, makes it to your blood, and magically finds its way to the bad joint, we're talking micrograms (if it even makes it). Another good product is the prescription nsaid Pennsaid....it's a topical nsaid in an iso- type of delivery base. The key to a topical joint product is to ensure the ingredients get absorbed even if just a little because it is a much more efficient delivery system for localized problems than any pill could ever hope to be. And sorry guys I'm not going to share my topical delivery base....still thinking about some products I could market based on it.
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Posted: Jun 5 2004, 05:14 PM
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I have to be ultra-skeptical if you claim it gets 60-90% absorption. There are very few delivery vehicles that can even come close to that.

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Posted: Jun 5 2004, 08:28 PM
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I am curious to see the effectivness of vpx's new glucosa cream as well...I tried to run a trial run and report for them, but the CEO does not believe in that from what I understand....hopefully brmachine might share his wisdom if the vpx product does not produce the effects I (and others no doubt)am hoping it will.

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